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Gilmour
224 pp.

ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON CONSTRUCTION SAFETY AND HEALTH
OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
Washington, DC

Frances Perkins Building
Room N-3427 A, B, & C

200 Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20210

Thursday,
December 9, 1999

The meeting was convened, pursuant to notice,

at 8:45 a.m., MR. STEWART BURKHAMMER, Acting Chairman,

presiding.

APPEARANCES:

EMPLOYER REPRESENTATIVES

MR. STEWART BURKHAMMER
Vice President & Manager of Safety

and Health Services
Bechtel Corporation
5275 Westview Drive
Frederick, Maryland 21703-8306

(w) 301-228-7501
(fax) 301-663-7737
MR. STEPHEN CLOUTIER

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Vice President
Safety/Loss Prevention Manager

J.A. Jones Construction
J.A. Jones Drive
Charlotte, North Carolina 28287
(w) 704-553-3574
(fax) 704-553-3195
MR. FELIPE DEVORA
Safety Director
Fretz Construction Company

P.O. Box 266784
Houston, Texas 77207-6784
(w) 713-641-6777
(fax) 713-641-4676
MR. ROBERT MASTERSON
Manager, Safety and Loss Control
The Ryland Group
11000 Broken Land Parkway
Columbia, Maryland 21044-3562

(w) 410-715-7240
(fax) 410-715-7909
MR. OWEN SMITH
President
Anzalone & Associates
12700 Foothill Boulevard
Sylmar, California 91342

(w) 323-877-8291
(fax) 818-837-1040
EMPLOYEE REPRESENTATIVES

MR. STEPHEN D. COOPER
Executive Director
International Association of Bridge,

Structural & Ornamental Iron Workers
Suite 400
1750 New York Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20006

(w) 202-383-4829
(fax) 202-347-1496
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MR. LARRY A. EDGINTON
Director of Safety and Health
International Union of Operating Engineers
1125 17th Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 20036

(w) 202-429-9100
(fax) 202-778-2691
MR. WILLIAM C. RHOTEN
Director of Safety & Health Department
United Association of Journeymen & Apprentices of

the Plumbing & Pipe Fitting Industry of the

United States & Canada
901 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20001

(w) 202-628-5823
(fax) 202-628-5024
MR. MARK AYERS
Director of Construction and Maintenance

Department
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
1125 15th Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 20005

(w) 202-728-6075
(fax) 202-728-7668
STATE REPRESENTATIVES

MR. HARRY PAYNE, JR.
Commissioner
North Carolina Department of Labor
4 West Edenton Street
Raleigh, North Carolina 27603

(w) 919-733-0359
(fax) 919-733-6197
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MR. DANNY EVANS
Chief Administrative Officer
OSH Enforcement Division of Industrial Relations
Nevada Department of Business and Industry
400 West King Street, Suite 200
Carson City, Nevada 89703

(w) 702-687-3250
(fax) 775-687-6150
PUBLIC REPRESENTATIVES

MS. JANE F. WILLIAMS
President
A-Z Safety Resources
4901 E. Kathleen Road
Scottsdale, AZ 85254

(w) 602-569-6330
(fax) 602-867-4338
MR. MICHAEL BUCHET

Construction Division Manager
National Safety Council
1121 Spring Lake Drive
Itasca, IL 60143-3201

(w) 630-775-2531
(fax) 630-775-2185
FEDERAL REPRESENTATIVE

MARIE HARING SWEENEY, Ph.D.
Chief, Document Development Branch
Education and Information Division
National Institute for Occupational

Safety and Health
4676 Columbia Parkway
Mailstop C-32
Cincinnati, Ohio 45226

(w) 513-533-8339
(fax) 513-533-8230
COMMITTEE CONTACTS

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MR. BRIAN SWANSON
Designated Federal Official

(w) 202-693-2020 Ext. 32489
(fax) 202-693-1689
(Internet) BruceSwanson@osha-no.osha.gov
MR. JIM BOOM

(w) 202-693-1707 Ext. 31839
(fax) 202-693-1689
MS. SARAH SHORTALL
Office of the Solicitor

(w) 202-219-7711 Ext. 154
(fax) 202-219-7147
(Internet) shortall-sarah@dol.gov
MR. BERRIEN ZETTLER
Deputy Director
Directorate of Construction

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I N D E X
PAGE

WELCOME
INTRODUCTIONS
ACCSH BUSINESS

By Stewart Burkhammer.......... 7

REMARKS

By Charles N. Jeffress ......... 16

NACOSH LIAISON REPORT

By Jane Williams ............ 71

ACCSH WORKGROUP REPORTS
MUSCULOSKELETAL DISORDERS

By Michael Buchet and
Marie Haring Sweeney ......... 74

DATA COLLECTION

By Michael Buchet............ 78
By Marie Haring Sweeney......... 80

SUBPART N - CRANES

By Larry Edginton............ 95

ACCSH GUIDELINES

By Jane Williams ............ 113

DIVERSIFIED CONSTRUCTION WORKFORCE INITIATIVES

By Jane Williams ............ 131

MULTI-EMPLOYER

By Felipe Devora ............ 134

SPECIAL PRESENTATION STANDARDS UPDATE

PROCESS SAFETY MANAGEMENT STANDARD -
ADVANCED NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING

By Marthe Kent ............. 138

HEXAVALENT CHROMIUM

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By Marthe Kent ............. 143
HEARING CONSERVATION IN CONSTRUCTION
By Marthe Kent ............. 158
SILICA
By Marthe Kent ............. 173
ACCSH WORKGROUP REPORTS, CONTINUED
FALL PROTECTION
By Bob Masterson ............ 126
ACCSH PLANNING SESSION
FOR THE CHICAGO MEETING IN FEBRUARY, 2000
By Chairman Burkhammer ......... 190
ADJOURN ................. 223

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PROCEEDINGS

WELCOME, INTRODUCTIONS and ACCSH BUSINESS

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Good morning. Welcome to
the year ending ACCSH meeting for 1999, the last ACCSH
meeting of the millennium.

We'll start by going around the room and
introducing ourselves. We'll start with the committee.
Owen?

(Whereupon, the attendees introduced
themselves.)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We'll now go around the
audience and introduce ourselves. Why don't we start on
the left?

(Whereupon, the members of the audience
introduced themselves.)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Members of the public who
would like to speak or make a presentation to the
committee, if you would give me, in writing, your name,
your association, and what you'd like to talk about, and
I'll make sure you get an opportunity.

We'd like to start this morning with a moment of
silence for the six fire fighters that died in the fire in

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Worcester. There's a memorial service this morning.
President Clinton is going to be there, and I'd like to
have a moment of silence in the room for the six fire
fighters.

(Whereupon, a moment of silence was observed.)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We want to welcome back
Dr. Marie Haring Sweeney from NIOSH. I wrote her off last
meeting, but her replacement at that time, Lynn
DeGodenauer, has accepted another assignment within NIOSH
and we're extremely pleased and happy to have Marie back
with us.

Before the Assistant Secretary comes and shares
with us, I thought I would take a moment and talk about
some personal feelings I have on some recent criticism
that some of the workgroups and ACCSH has come under
regarding some of the work processes that the committee

does.

For those of you that attend here on a regular
basis, you will remember a couple of meetings ago that
Jane Williams, who chaired a work group, a committee on
guidelines of the ACCSH committee. She presented that
report to the ACCSH and it was approved unanimously and

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forwarded on to OSHA.

These are the guidelines with which the
committee now does business. I think there were copies
made available. I think the V&A and some others had a
copy of this. So I think everybody kind of understands
what they are, but I want to pick out a couple of things
and share with you of how we do our business.

The work groups are open to the public.
Anybody, anywhere, any place, any time can come to the
workgroup meetings and participate fully, as has been the
case in the past and will continue to be the case in the
future.

Some of the workgroups draw more participation
than others, and I fully believe that that's because of
the topic or the subject that the workgroup is discussing.
Some subjects and topics have more interest than others.

So some of the committees have had 30, 40 people
at times, other workgroups have had 2 and 3. But the
process, no matter how many people come and participate,
or some people come and don't participate and just sit
there, still continues on and the workgroup continues to
do their work.

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There seems to be a misunderstanding, or in some
folks a misunderstanding, how the workgroup votes. The
workgroup prepares a document and they try to get
consensus, and most of the time do achieve consensus in a
lot of the workgroups, on the various topics that they're
working on.

The co-chairs, and two years ago we went to
using co-chairs rather than singular chairs, bring to
ACCSH the workgroup product and present it to the full
ACCSH committee. The ACCSH committee then votes on the
workgroup product if there's a motion put forth by the
workgroup chairs.

A lot of times, the workgroup reports will be
just that, a report on what the workgroup has achieved
since the last meeting, if they've had any meetings since
the last meeting, some of the things they're working on
since the last meeting, but they may not have a motion
because they haven't finished their product or they
haven't gotten to the point where they need to make a
motion to ACCSH to vote on.

Once ACCSH does vote, if the vote is more ayes
than nays--and most of the time the votes are unanimous on

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this committee, though lately we've had one or two people
that have either abstained or not voted in the unanimous
portion of it--and then we forward it on to OSHA for their
doing whatever they want to do with what our
recommendation was.

This committee, like NACOSH, is powered to make
recommendations. We don't set policy. We don't develop
standards, although we may develop a skeletal outline of a
standard and present it to OSHA. It's up to them then to
take whatever the product we deliver to them and do with
it as they see fit.

In the past, in the 14 years that I have been
attending and participating, in the beginning of those 14
years back in the middle of the late 1980s, there would
seem to be a lot of committee members who felt that OSHA
didn't do a lot with what they produced.

I think, in the 1990s, that has changed
substantially, and that OSHA now fully expects and accepts
the products that the workgroup delivers. They have been
very diligent in coming back to ACCSH whenever they have a
change in the product, or they want us to review their
final product before they go out. Multi-employers is a

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perfect example of that.

Noah Connell, from OSHA, worked with the
Felipe's group on Multi-Employer. They produced a product
that came to ACCSH. We made some changes, we voted the
product unanimously. It went to OSHA. OSHA worked on the
product.

They brought it back to Felipe and ACCSH, we
gave it back to Felipe's workgroup for a final review and
clean-up. It went back, and now it's ready to hit the
street. I think it's at the publishers now, and hopefully
will hit the street shortly.

So there's a prime example of something that, in
the past, could have taken 12, 13, 14 years, and they did
it in a span of a couple of years. I think a big part of
that is the workgroups' efforts and the hard work that the
workgroup chairs, the people in the audience, and the
public that participate in those workgroups to get the
products out the door, get them back into OSHA, so we get
some meaningful things out on the street to help protect
the workers in America today.

So I think some of the criticism that has been
weighed against ACCSH and the workgroups is incorrect.

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think, as far as the process goes, the process is not
flawed. The process is realistic, it works.

What makes the process work even better is when
more and more people participate in the process, and more
and more people come to the workgroups, and more and more
people help provide input--meaningful input--to the
products. That way, the product truly is a consensus
product.

In February of 2000, as we announced at the last
meeting, ACCSH will be meeting in conjunction with the
Chicago Land Safety Congress in Rosemont, Illinois in
February, I think it is, 15th through 18th. There will be

on that Monday of that week workgroups.

We are really looking forward to having safety
professionals and union foremen, non-union foremen,
stewards, representatives of employees come to share with
us the real-world thoughts on some of the stuff we're
doing.

I know Felipe wants to have a multi-employer
workgroup because we'll have the product out on the street
then and we'd like some advice and comments back from the
real working people about what they think they can live

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with and can't live with.

We've talked about some other workgroups and, at
the end of today, in the 3:00 hour today, we're going to
be preparing the agenda for the February meeting. So for
the ACCSH committee, please make some notes of anything
you'd like on that agenda, and then we'll get to it at

3:00.
I hope we can prepare an agenda. We're looking
at a one-day agenda, plus a one-day workgroup. The
suggestion has been made, and I think it's an excellent
one, of maybe while we're out there going over to the
Training Institute and getting Manny to give us a little
tour and show us what they're doing at the Institute.

It would be a good time for ACCSH to be able to
do that, and Manny has come up before us many times and
made some presentations. So if that's something the
committee would like to include, maybe we could take a
half a day, and if everything works out, we could tour the
Institute. So, keep that in mind.

Bruce, do you have anything to comment on before
we start here?
MR. SWANSON: I do not, Stew.

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you.

Sarah?

MS. SHORTALL: Only that under our regulations,
as well as the Federal Advisory Committee Act, there are
no specific requirements, other than making sure that
subgroups are open to the public, that govern the
workgroups here.

The efforts that have been made by ACCSH to
regularize with guidelines their workgroup, is actually
going beyond what would be required under our regulations
as an agency, and under the regulations of the government
as a whole.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you.

We're waiting for the Assistant Secretary to
join us. I've been told he will be here any second. He
is now here.

MR. SWANSON: Charles is here.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So I no longer have to get

up and dance.

MR. JEFFRESS: Oh, no. Go right ahead. Don't
let me stop you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Shine the light and do the

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finger puppets on the wall. Welcome back from your
retreat.

MR. JEFFRESS: Thank you. Back from my retreat.
We finished with out strategic retreats and we now are
ready for advances.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Good. The floor is all
yours.

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REMARKS

By Charles N. Jeffress

MR. JEFFRESS: Thank you. I apologize for being
a little late. I did have a staff meeting downstairs this
morning I just walked in from.

Let me say, I got a call from Harry Payne's
office just before I went to the staff meeting. He missed
his flight, the first flight. He will be here, but it
will be about 10:30 or so before he arrives. It seems
like just yesterday we were together.

This morning I wanted to cover several things
with you; budget news, in terms of what Congress has done,
kind of a little preview of standards activities that
Marthe is going to talk more about this afternoon, and
then some of the thinking that came out of our staff
retreat the past few days about directions for the coming
year.

First, on the budget, the Congress passed, and
the President has signed. There is still a little bit of
tweaking going on because there's a very small cut that

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Congress mandated be taken.

The administration isn't clear whether it's
going to be across the board yet, or exactly how it's
going to be assigned. So, there is some minor tinkering
that might still happen with the budget.

But essentially, for OSHA, the President had
asked on our behalf that we have a major initiative this
coming year on education, outreach, and expanding that
part of what we do.

Congress provided for about half of what we
asked for in this regard. We expect to add between 30 and
35 new positions that will be full-time trainers,
compliance assistance specialists, in our area offices
around the country.

We did get funds to increase by about 50 percent
the Susan Harwood training grants that provide training to
employees through nonprofits and others across the
country.

We've gotten more money to expand the Expert
Advisors, our Internet-based application for people who
are looking for help with compliance with safety and
health procedures.

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So we've got a significant part of the
investment in expanding our outreach and education. We're
pleased with that, and I do expect us to be able to make
significant advances next year, but, really, it's only a
small down payment.

In terms of where I'd like to see the agency go
in the year 2001, it would be to expand further on this.
This is really just a small beginning and it's something
I'd like to keep growing. But I'm happy with that part of
what was provided in the budget.

Overall, the budget was about an eight percent
increase for OSHA in the coming year. That's on top of
about a six percent increase the previous year, so that
the Congress has done relatively well by OSHA, given its
difficult budget times of the past couple of years.

In addition to the investment in the
education/training/outreach part of what we're doing,
significant investment in our information technology. We
got a $7 million increase in IT. This is not for great
leaps forward, this is to replace equipment that is beyond
its expected life that the manufacturer has stopped
supporting and that we need to replace.

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Those of you who are not familiar with the OSHA
system, we have many computers in every state consultation
program, in every federal area office, and in every state
OSHA program.

There are 225 mini-computers around the country
that feed into our OSHA data system, and every one of
those has to be replaced, along with all the programming
software and everything that goes with it.

So the bulk of that money is going to be for a
new system which, of course, will be new and improved, but
basically it's a replacement for the system that we have
now.

There is also a small amount of money for
enhancing enforcement, 14 or 15 positions in that area, a
third of which will probably be dedicated for 11-C, or
whistle blower positions, given the workload.

We are unable to complete our work for whistle
blower complaints in a timely manner, and we'll put a
percentage of these towards expanding our capacity in the
whistle blower area.

So that's kind of the highlights of what the
budget is that the Commerce passed for the coming year.

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Before I go on to anything else, any comments or questions
about that that folks have?

(No response)

MR. JEFFRESS: It is really just an excuse for
me to pour water. Thanks.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, it sounds like you
did well.

MR. JEFFRESS: As I say, I think the Department
did relatively well and the Congress treated us relatively
well. I thank the President for his advocacy on our
behalf.

In the standards area, there was a little news a
couple of weeks ago about the ergonomics proposal that we
were going forward with in general industry.

There has been a fair amount of correspondence
that some of you all have seen about the ergonomics and
construction, and your part in that, and our role in
continuing to promote it on an educational basis,
addressing ergonomics in construction. We have taken your
recommendation to us. We are promoting it, we are
publishing it. We will continue to address ergonomics in
construction.

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I know there are folks who like ergonomics in
general industry that don't believe in the science. We do
believe in the science. We do believe that there are
things that can be done here to protect workers and to
make workplaces more productive, so we will continue to
promote ergonomics in construction.

But the rule making, of course, is in general
industry and that will continue to attract attention, I'm
sure. The comment period ends February 1, hearings in
February, March, and April in general industry, where our
goal continues to be to complete the general industry
proposal by the end of next year.

Other standards activities that, again, Marthe
is going to talk about in more detail later, but I want to
highlight for you. One of the things that I've been
concerned about for some time is our lack of moving
forward with noise in construction, and I think we need to
move on that. I've asked the standards teams to work on
noise in construction this year as a priority, and Marthe
will talk more about that.

Steel erection. Hearings, of course, have been
held. We've evaluated the comments on that, and I am

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going back to consult with the Negotiated Rule Making
Committee on steel erection next week. We'll have a
meeting with them.

Following that meeting, we'll have to make some
final decisions here in the Department to go forward to
OMB for their final review. It seems to take forever
sometimes to get these things, but after the Department's
review, the OMB's review, I expect that we'll have a final
on that by spring, anyway.

Some other areas that we're working. In silica,
and many of you are involved or know about the stakeholder
meetings we've had in silica, we're trying to go forward
with construction and general industry at the same time in
this area. Marthe will talk more about where that team is
headed.

There has been an interest, even while that team
is going forward, in trying to have some kind of
equivalency established between the two measuring systems
for silica, and while the standards team is moving forward
with the standards development in this area, we will also
continue to ask researchers and other silica experts, is
there some way we could establish some equivalency so we

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can end this kind of interregnum we have in terms of
construction measurement on silica. We're trying to work
on that piece of it.

Chromium is another area that our standards team
is working on that has some application in construction
that you all will be interested in, and Marthe will be
talking about.

Then the process safety management standard.
We'll be doing an advanced notice of proposed rule making
in that area, talking about adding reactive chemicals to
this, and ask questions about addressing the Mir decision
that accepted flammable liquids in atmospheric storage
tanks from coverage under the PSM standards.

All of those standards activities, I think, will
affect folks in construction and you might be interested
in. Marthe will talk about those in more detail this
afternoon.

In terms of general plans for next year for
OSHA, about 40 senior managers from OSHA met last the last
two days to go over our accomplishments for the past year
and to talk about where we're headed the next year.

I think, within OSHA, we feel like we're

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addressing significant issues, that we've made significant
progress this year, basically, an affirmation of the
direction we're headed. There was consensus there in the
retreat amongst the managers, which I endorsed and led the
discussion of.

The enforcement program. We're doing roughly
34,000 inspections a year. With a little increase in
compliance officers, we might get to 35,000. But the
inspections are basically steady.

The number of significant cases, that is, the
cases with penalties of more than $100,000, increased
substantially last year, construction not being a big part
of that.

The biggest part of the increase was the result
of our focusing on the high injury rate sites in general
industry, using the OSHA Data Initiative to identify the
workplaces, the employers, with the highest injury rates,
and has taken us places where there are real problems
occurring and we found more significant cases.

I expect that trend to continue, and we will
certainly continue to use the enforcement tool to get
folks' attention. I continue to be frustrated, as some of
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you all are, that we have no way to identify individual
contractor rates, and will be seeking support from the
administration in the future to do something similar in construction to what we're doing in general industry.
Perhaps by the next meeting we can talk about where we are
in that proposal and where we might go with that.

Beyond strong enforcement, obviously, I've
already mentioned the money for education outreach.
Expansion of that is important for us. One of the things
that you may see as you touch different parts of OSHA, is
that virtually every part of our organization does
something in this area.

We have our standards teams that are telling
people about how to comply with standards, what the
standard means, and interpretations, and are doing
outreach when new standards occur.

Our Public Information Office, of course, is
producing documents on compliance with safety and health
issues, and general promotion of occupational safety and
health issues.

Our compliance people are involved in this, our
tech support people who do a lot of technical information

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bulletins are involved in this. Our Internet is a huge
resource for people; we are averaging 14 million hits a
month on that.

So there are a lot of different parts of the
agency that are involved in this, and we will spend some
time this year establishing some clear lines of
responsibility, some clear delineation of who's going to
do what as we go forward, because we are going to be
expanding this and I want make sure it's done in a
coordinated matter and folks aren't tripping over each
other, and that we get the most bang out of the buck for
the additional increase we have.

So, again, the promotion of outreach and
education activities will be a significant part of what we
do this coming year.

The partnerships that we promoted this past year
have been effective. At the end of the fiscal year, there
were 51 active partnerships that were working.

One of my observations about these is that, in
several cases, I've signed, at the national level, a
statement of principles of cooperation and principles of
partnership with organizations, and those are good policy

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statements of cooperation, but it's very difficult to, at
a national level, set a partnership that actually affects
behavior at local levels in terms of things that people
follow up on, are committed to, and invest in.

The best partnerships seem to come when people
at the local level get together and talk about what
they're going to do differently in that area, in that
state where our folks are involved, employers are
involved, employees are involved, and folks really get
together and talk about what's going to change in the way
they work.
So I will continue to emphasize partnerships
created at the local level, while I certainly want to
continue to encourage principles of cooperation at a
national level.

The real strength in these things is when the
people in the area, in the regional office or in the
state, agree to some change in behavior. So I will be
promoting those and, once again, encouraging people to
solve problems in their area with the people in their
area, and have them focus locally.

One of the advantages of that, is I think it

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really does change behavior better than the national
partnerships do. The disadvantage is, they don't get the
attention. If you're doing something in Boise, Idaho,
folks in Maine don't hear about it, folks in Washington
don't hear about it, folks in Florida don't hear about it.
So, I think these partnerships are important. I think
they make a significant difference.

All the investment sometimes won't pay off in
terms of public relations because people don't understand
the cooperation that's going on, but I think it will be a
better way to change behavior than trying just to use
principles of cooperation at the national level.

Then the fourth area, is the standards. I
mentioned to you already, in terms of construction, some
of the standards that we're going to be dealing with. We
have reinvented, on the nonconstruction side of the
agency, the way we do standards into a team-based
approach.

We are evaluating that this month and hope to
make some permanent changes in the way we do business for
most of the standards teams this year. So, we will
internalize that.

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This year, while the standards teams were
refocusing and getting up to speed on this new way of
working, a lot of work got done on things that were under
way, and there's a big crop of standards that will come
out this year.

It's not because this year there was a big
emphasis, it's because there was big emphasis last year to
pay off and come to fruition this year. I expect the PPE
payment issue to be final this year. The record closes
this month and it will be final next year. Steel erection
will be final. Record keeping will go final.
Tuberculosis will go final.

Ergonomics, as you know, we have published and
hope to go final. We'll have proposals for safety and
health programs. We'll have a number of these that we're
working on.

We have work being done on them, so I expect it
to be a very active year in terms of the public seeing the
product of the work that was started this past year in the
standards area.

Those are the four types of activities you'll
see from us this coming year that all the OSHA folks have

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agreed to invest in. But these are means of accomplishing
our strategic plan, all of these ways of working, if you
will; strong enforcement, outreach and education, setting
standards and partnerships. They're all means to achieve
the goals in our strategic plan.

You all got copies of the draft strategic plan
revisions that we worked on this fall. We have a
strategic plan that goes through 2002. We've been asked
to modify that to reach out to 2004, and we will be, this
year, modifying that. But at the moment, we're still
working on 2002 goals.

Where we are on reaching those goals. Next
week, the Bureau of Labor Statistics will report the 1988
injury and illness numbers, so rather than try to predict
what's going to happen, let me just say, next week we'll
know more about our success in the five industries where
we are trying to work with employers and employees to
reduce injuries and illnesses.

We already know, in terms of silica and lead
exposures, which are the exposures that we measure as we
make inspections, there appears to be progress. Exposures
appear to be lower now than what they were in 1995, which

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we took as our base year.

An area that I'm very concerned about not being
lower is construction fatalities. Now, we have fatality
data that comes in sooner than injury and illness data.
We already know, in 1998, fatalities in the construction
industry went up. Both in numbers and in rate per 10,000
employees, the fatalities increased.

So while overall injuries and illnesses in
construction have been on a steady decline in the last
five years, the fatalities in the last two years have
increased; clearly, the wrong direction for you all.

You all don't want to see that happen. No
employer, no union out there wants to see that happen, we
don't want to see that happen, but it is happening.

One of the things we've got to do in
construction is to rededicate ourselves to looking at the
primary causes of fatalities in construction. We've got
to work hard to get employers and unions to join us in
some partnerships to focus on training employees in
construction.

But fatalities continue to increase. That's one
glaring place in our strategic plan, probably the most

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glaring place, that we're not making progress in terms of
addressing one of our strategic goals.

The other two strategic goals in our plan often
get overlooked. The first one is measurable in terms of
reduction in injuries, illnesses, and fatalities, and that
gets talked about a lot.

But the second goal that we've got in terms of
changing workplace culture is just as important to us, and
I think is really much a means as enforcement is in terms
of getting numbers down, ultimately.

So the kinds of partnerships we're working on,
safety and health promotion we can do. I would say, for
instance, the ergonomics promotion that we're going to do
in construction based on what you all recommended to us,
all that is geared to changing workplace cultures without
necessarily using standards or enforcement as a way to do
it, but teaching people new ways of working and getting
people to work in different ways. Part of our outreach
and education investment is directed towards this second
goal to change workplace cultures.

Then the third goal in terms of securing public
confidence in what we do. Again, it is important to us.

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Under this goal I would lump customer satisfaction kinds
of issues, employee satisfaction kinds of issues.

If our employees are capable and confident,
people have more confidence in us. And if people have
more confidence in us, I think that will enhance the
reputation of the program and will encourage people to
listen more to what's going on.

So, I think it's important for us to emphasize
customer satisfaction and employee satisfaction. We've
talked about ways to be more responsive to our clients and
to our customers, and we'll be adopting some new ways of
working here and revising some of the ways we proceed that
we hope will be more responsive.

We need to work those through in the
organization before I make any public announcements of
what they are, but I will say the field adopted, in the
strategic plan, goals of getting to complaint responses by
phone and fax within a day of the time that people ask for
an investigation, or if they require an on-site visit
getting there within five days, and getting fatalities and
catastrophes within a day.

We're up in the 80 percent range on achieving

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that for fatalities and catastrophes and for
investigations. I expect we'll get in the 90 percent
range this year. I think it's very responsive, and I'm
very pleased with that.

We need to be able to do the same thing for the
kinds of inquiries people make to us, the kind of
responsiveness to letters and requests for assistance that
we get beyond enforcement, and that's one of the things
we've been working on this year.

But I would have to caution you, and this would
be my last comment and then I'll take questions, in terms
of customer satisfaction, it is important to remember we
are a regulatory agency.

These surveys that survey whether or not people
are satisfied with the agency include in the population
being surveyed people who got bad news and who didn't like
the results. I'm careful to posit what we're trying to do
as being responsive to people and being protective of
safety and health.

Making everybody happy is not within our
capacity, and it's not our goal. But it is our goal to be
reasonable, to be fair, and to be responsive to folks.

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But, on a customer satisfaction survey, a regulatory
agency is going to be somewhat lower than those folks who
are selling products, or passing out checks, or delivering
services to folks.

So I'd just caution you. I acknowledge that, I
hope you'll acknowledge that, and we can go forward,
recognizing that we can improve what we're doing in terms
of customer satisfaction. Our goal is not necessarily
making everybody happy.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you very much.
Committee? Jane?

MS. WILLIAMS: Charles, I have two questions, if
I can impose. I ask the committee up front to bear with
me on these issues.

MR. JEFFRESS: I know the first one. What's the
second one?

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: No fair preempting.

MS. WILLIAMS: Charles, it's been repeatedly
told to me that this has been an extremely aggressive
ACCSH committee, and I think it is so in my own opinion

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because everyone at this table has agreed to consensus, we
want to protect our employers, and we certainly are here
to protect the workers. So we have not always agreed, but
we certainly have come to a very good, positive consensus.
That's why I think we have been so productive.

My two questions concern, of course, our issue
of sanitation. Regulatory agenda is out, and I guess I
should be appreciative that sanitation finally made it
onto the agenda. But after all this time, I feel that you
and the administrative have continued to fail our
construction workers and our industry.

I see a long-term goal for sanitation. I see
notice of proposed rule making for December 2000. The
Directorate's Office explained to me that the long-term
goal was because no date was given, and that's a process
that OMB does, in fact, assign.

I found it unacceptable that we cannot look at
this issue and project a date when we could get it
through. In all my research, I don't think I have to tell
you or anybody that that OSHA act is very clear.

On a sanitary workplace, it doesn't say all fall
protection, it doesn't say steel, it doesn't say silica,

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yet we've failed to provide our workers with sanitary
facilities that are accessible, that they can get to, that
in Arizona in 112 degree weather you don't even want to
walk by it, let alone go into it.

I guess my first question to you, sir, is what
is your priority for sanitation for our construction
workers?

MR. JEFFRESS: As I've said before, and I'll say
again today, I think sanitation is an appropriate area for
OSHA to act in. We've put it on our regulatory agenda.
It does have to compete with all of the other standards
that need to be adopted to protect construction workers.
I don't like to promise things we can't deliver.

In my looking at what the capacity agency is, at
the standards that are under way and have been under way,
many of them, for as long as sanitation, and sanitation
has been around a long time as well, we had to make
choices. The choice I made was, yes, we will address
sanitation. We will not make it the first, second, or
third one we do this year. We will put it on a list to
achieve.

Since I cannot predict confidently when we will

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address that, I chose not to give a date, whereas, I am
saying that we will complete steel erection this year, we
will move forward with noise in construction, we do have
dates for some of the others that have been around for a
while as well.

I did not feel like I could promise to deliver
something. Since I couldn't deliver something with the
staff we had, I didn't give a date for it. It is a
priority, it needs to be accomplished. I can agree with
your statement, that is something that needs to be done.

MS. WILLIAMS: Charles, that brings me to my
second question, to conclude the first part. I can't see
any resource in your agency that would not be more
appropriate for you to achieve your strategic plan and
bring a cultural difference than to provide our workers
with sanitary facilities. I truly believe that. I intend
to make that known to every political candidate that I
can.

I am going to ask the president of the building
trades to join me and let me address the building trades
to bring this issue, and all the associations who love to
write letters, I want them to look at this issue also, and

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I wanted you to know that I was going to be doing that,
personally, up front before I did it.

MR. JEFFRESS: I encourage you to do that.
Again, the more attention and more interest there is in
safety and health protection in all areas, including
sanitation, the better for all of us.

I welcome that, and I would agree with your
assertion that this is a very aggressive ACCSH committee,
and I'm glad to have an aggressive ACCSH committee. I'd
much rather have folks pushing for improvements than
sitting there waiting for us to tell folks what to do.

MS. WILLIAMS: Well, my second question, and
then I certainly will allow other members to get in here.
The process that ACCSH is going through, we worked on
sanitation for a year and a half at the request that we do
so. We then sat and waited one year for it to even be
addressed.

We were done with our work, very aggressively
did our work and pulled every stop we possibly could for
input, had other people participate. It was done a year
ago November. Here, it is now December, we're just making
the agenda, and that's two years.

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I guess my question is the process of ACCSH. We
are given assignments and we fulfill those assignments.
Yes, we have been very aggressive to do it, and not to
just get something out, but we have done it thoroughly.

So I guess my concern is, when we are given
these assignments and the Directorate and everyone knows
we're working on these items, why are these not
automatically in your process for resourcing?

Why do we have to wait two years after the
conclusion of our work? It's very discouraging to have so
many people flying in and participating and doing all the
things that we're doing, and we don't see an end to our
resource.

So I think my second question to you is, am I
expecting too much of ACCSH and our work products, or the
support of yourself and future assistant secretaries to
help us achieve these goals?

MR. JEFFRESS: The question you raise is not
just an ACCSH question. Other advisory committees have
similar concerns. Perhaps OSHA hasn't been doing you a
fair service in asking people to try to give fair
proposals for what good policies should be in the safety

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and health area. Again, my experience with standard
setting is mostly limited to the last couple of years.
I've learned a lot in a couple of years.

One of the things I have appreciated much more
now is the extent to which writing the right policy for
whatever the hazard is is 5 to 10 percent of the work of
producing a standard.

Doing the feasibility for standards, the
research on what's feasible, is a significant investment.
Significant proof is required. Depending on the nature of
the standard, it might be more difficult or less

difficult, but the economic feasibility and the
technological feasibility requires research beyond just,
okay, what's the best policy? How can you prove in a
court of law that this is technologically feasible and
economically it's feasible for the workplaces effected?

To document and research the health effects.
Something like sanitation, it's common sense that we all
would agree on, I think, that there should be separate
facilities and they should be sanitary. I can't say that
to a judge and have the judge say, you're right. We will
have to, in fact, show the health effects of not providing

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sanitary facilities.

That takes research beyond deciding what the
best policy is. I think, in terms of what we've been
asking our advisory councils to do, is to tell us what you
think the best policy is without, in fact, asking you to
do -- and I'm not sure we should ask you to do the work,
but without, in fact, sharing with you the kind of back-up
documentation there has to be once you decide what the
best policy is.

I know every other standard that I've had to
deal with where the policy appears clear what direction we
should go, the fact that it takes another two years to do
the background research and documentation to make it
survive whatever legal challenges might occur is very
frustrating to the folks involved in the process,
including myself.

But I have a greater respect for both the need
for it now, and for the amount of work it takes to do
that. So I would not say that the agency is not
supporting ACCSH. I would say that we've probably done a
disservice by leading people to the expectation that, once
you decide on a policy, all the agency has to do is

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publish it.

That's not a fair assessment of what's required
to get a standard out. I don't know that I would
necessarily encourage you to try to be involved in all the
research is ACCSH was interested in it.

I would welcome you all participating in all the
kind of background feasibility proofs, technological
proofs, legal proofs, health effects proofs, significant
risk proofs that we have to produce.

But, given that you're volunteers, I'm not sure
that I would commend it to you as particular good use of
your time. I found the best use of your time is your
telling us what the best policy is. But we probably ought
to have an expectation that, once we decide what the best
policy is, documenting that so that we can propose it
takes a lot of time.

MS. WILLIAMS: Charles, I do thank you. The
only thing I'll conclude with is that this standard
exists. It's minimal to change it and make it work, and
this would be a legacy far better than the ergonomics to
the worker. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Chairman.

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Mr. Rhoten?

MR. RHOTEN: Yes. Just a comment. I concur
with Jane's opinion on the whole thing, Mr. Jeffress. I'm
not sure how these things become prioritized. I would
assume that you get recommendations from staff and they
decide which standard we might move forward with.

But I would suggest that, if a lot of the people
that have made those recommendations actually had to use
those facilities on a construction site, that it would get
a little more priority, I think. I think it's a real
serious problem, and I would encourage you to try to
expedite this to the top of the list.

MR. JEFFRESS: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Mr. Masterson?

MR. MASTERSON: I'd have to agree with both Jane
and Bill on that. But to balance the equation out, it
might be good if you all could help us understand what
hoops you jump through, maybe take us actually through the
process of setting a standard for yourself and those
things that you do have to accomplish and approve, so that
we all are looking at the same playing field you are, and
maybe that will help our expectation better.

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MR. JEFFRESS: We've been doing that with
NACOSH. Maybe it would be helpful to do with ACCSH.
We've had a series, or a piece of probably five meetings
now, that has been dedicated to the standards setting
process.

The first one, just going through what all it
takes to adopt a standard, the 116 different steps that
are required to adopt a standard, and then we've had
sessions with different stakeholders in terms of their
view of OSHA's standards setting process, how they
participate, how they'd like to participate, and what
problems they have, and maybe that would be helpful to do
with ACCSH as well, to walk people through the standards
setting process.

I, for one, know some of the pieces that you
have to jump through, but there are probably a whole host
of them that don't even have an inkling that you're going
through. It would help me with my expectation of what
OSHA is bringing or doing with our recommendations if we
did have an understanding of that.

I had no idea there were 116 different steps
that you had to go through. I mean, I thought the

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bureaucracy in a private company is bad; you're in a lot
worse situation, it sounds like.

MR. JEFFRESS: One of the frustrations, is every
time Congress passes a law to "reform" the rule making
process in government, they never go back and eliminate
any steps, they only add additional steps.

So for the past few years, every time some
reform bill is passed, you can count on it making the
process longer, more complicated, with more steps to
achieve. They never go back and review the whole thing
and eliminate any steps in the process.

The same thing happens with court decisions.
When standards get challenged, frequently the end result
of a court decision is yet another test that a standard
has to meet, therefore, the agency has to produce the
documentation to meet whatever test that decision ends up
with.

So it is not a fixed process in law. It changes
every year by Congressional act, it changes with various
court decisions, and it is an evolving process. But I
think it would be interesting. I know NACOSH found it
fascinating to hear the various steps involved in the

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process.

MR. MASTERSON: It would seem you'd have some
kind of a template, that you'd know right up front, here
are the steps you're going to go through. Is that a
simple document, an overview, that we might be able to get
our hands on?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Nothing's simple.

(Laughter)

MR. MASTERSON: We don't need all the details.

MR. JEFFRESS: We don't have a template like
that. We did commit ourselves this past year to
developing a standard writers manual that would have all
the steps in it.

NACOSH has asked for, and we have not yet
produced it--when we do, we'll share it with both of you-just
a wall chart, a flow chart, that will go around the
room as to what happens at different steps, depending on
what you find and what actions are taken. We've committed
to doing that, and would be happy to share that with you
all as well. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Maybe we can get with
Bruce and work out something for the May meeting, to have

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a presentation on that.

MR. JEFFRESS: Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie?

DR. SWEENEY: I'd like to change the subject
just a little bit, Mr. Jeffress. I would like to
personally thank you for your attention and support of the
ACCSH Musculoskeletal Committee. We really appreciate
that.

On that same note, we know that construction
ergonomics is not on the regulatory agenda, again. Since
you are now enhancing your education, training, and
outreach programs, would you consider putting construction
ergonomics at the top of one of those lists in terms of
your education outreach? One might be developing a
technical advisor, or a couple of them that deal with
construction ergonomics.

The reason I say this, is there is a lot of
information already out there that can be easily
integrated. I'm sure my co-chair on the committee would
be more than willing to get the committee to assist in
putting these together, because I think they would be
really valuable.

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MR. JEFFRESS: One thing I will encourage you to
help me do, in ergonomics in general industry, I'm
directing our staff that we don't have to invent
everything or write everything ourselves; there's a lot of
good information out there.

And one of the things I want to do, is to
enhance even further what we've already got, which is a
pretty extensive bibliography of ergo materials, and
actually begin using stuff developed by NIOSH or developed
by other organizations that we'll give credit to, instead
of having to write ourselves, take what's out there, and
use it to give to our compliance assistance specialists to
train with in the field. We will do that for construction
ergonomics as well. I can't promise to develop something
new, but I can promise to do a search on what's the best
stuff out there, and then use that like we are in other
areas.

DR. SWEENEY: That would be wonderful. Thank
you.

MR. JEFFRESS: Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Mr. Devora?

MR. DEVORA: Yes. Mr. Jeffress, I want to

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change the subject back to piggy-back on a little bit of
what Jane said.

MR. JEFFRESS: Yes.

MR. DEVORA: One of your comments, and we talk
about this all the time, is cultural change in the
industry. I know that seems to be one of your important
goals. We struggle with that all the time. As a
representative of a construction company, we can effect
that change and a lot of times we try to see how we can
think outside the box and accomplish that.

But as we sit here today, and Jane asked you
some of these questions, I hear you saying -- and I
realize you are a government agency, but even government
agencies need some cultural change in their behavior at
times. So we're not opposed to -

MR. JEFFRESS: Point well taken.

(Laughter)

MR. DEVORA: We're not opposed to you thinking
outside the box either and finding a way to get these
things to the table a little bit quicker.

MR. JEFFRESS: Fair enough.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Mr. Edginton?

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MR. EDGINTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Charles, I'd like to get back to where Jane was
on the sanitation standard. I must tell you, on behalf of
myself and my own organization, we were stunned when we
saw the status that the proposed rule had been given.

As we sit here today, there are somewhere
between five and six million construction workers who do
not enjoy the benefit of basic human decency, which is
having a clean, sanitary place to defecate, urinate. They
don't have an ability to wash their hands as a matter of
regulation. These are benefits that all other categories
of workers in this country currently enjoy.

MR. JEFFRESS: I suggest you talk to some
agricultural and farm workers.

MR. EDGINTON: It bothers us tremendously. From
my own organization, we say, this should be a slam/dunk.
This is just plain common sense. We talk about the
ability to effectuate change that would benefit a broad
cross section of draft workers in a way, unlike many of
the other regulations that we're working on, or the agency
is working on, do not.

It would seem to me that there ought to be a

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way, when you look at something like that, you realize the
number of workers that would be affected by it, benefit
from it, to give it a higher priority. As many of my
colleagues have said here this morning, if there is a way
to figure out how to move this along a little faster, we
really think it's in order.

I think Jane was also right about expressing
concerns about ACCSH and its role with the agency, the
role of the workgroups on ACCSH. Perhaps what all of us
need to be working on more, I think, is what I would
loosely characterize as expectation management, what we
expect out of you and what you expect out of us. I think,
to the extent that we can continue to work together to
refine that, we're all going to be better off because of
it.

MR. JEFFRESS: I think that's a good point, and
Bruce and I probably ought to talk more openly about how
many folks we have dedicated to construction standards
development, and given what's required to produce a
standard, what's a reasonable level of work to expect from
that kind of staff.

I would expect from that you would probably

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suggest to me I need to put more resources in construction
standards, and that is something we should discuss as
well, you know, in a finite world, where do you get those
resources? But I agree with you, I think that is a
discussion we ought to have more openly with ACCSH.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: One thing to think about,
maybe. I noticed when you looked at the regulatory
agenda, noise was on there. There is certainly a lot of
noise because sanitation isn't higher, so maybe you ought
to take a look at that.

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Mr. Buchet? Michael?

MR. BUCHET: Having enjoyed the privilege of
sitting on a negotiated rule making committee, we
refreshed our understanding of the rule setting process
once or twice in the cycle of the committee.

I know that some at the Solicitor's Office, at
least, do not have a canned speech, but they have notes
that are fairly easy and it would probably be very
instructive for us to enjoy.

MR. JEFFRESS: Right.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie?

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DR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

One other thing. You alluded to, or you
emphasized the fact that fatalities are going up in
construction, and we all are appalled by that. There are
two workgroups in ACCSH that are working on helping OSHA
reform a form that collects information on fatalities.
This is the 170 form for construction.

I would hope that, in your upgrade of all your
computer systems, you, in fact, can also think about
upgrading this form. We are trying to make sure that you
use standardized processes, that, in fact, you have a
computerized system that allows the compliance officer an
easy way of entering the data, but also that the data is
informative when it's brought back to home base for
analysis.

Right now, from what we've seen, the data aren't
that useful. There are a fair number of errors that can
be changed, even in the coding system. So I would hope,
and I'm sure the co-chairs of those two groups would
agree, that this should, in fact, be a priority, because
then you can use this information for developing
interventions for reducing fatalities or intervening on

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the types of fatalities that occur most often.

MR. JEFFRESS: Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: That brings up an
interesting point I'd like to ask you, Charles, or anybody
you'd like to have answer. In April, I believe it was
April, the workgroup drafted a letter from you to the
Secretary of Commerce on certain construction verbiage
changes to the 170 form.

MR. JEFFRESS: Right.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: And the workgroup has been
working based on that letter since then. Did we send the
letter, number one, and did we get a response yet from the
Secretary of Commerce?

MR. JEFFRESS: After talking with folks in the
Department of Commerce, they decided it was better not to
put that in writing because there may be different ways of
approaching it than what was put in writing, what was
drafted.

So there have been a series of conversations
with folks in the Department of Commerce, and they have
said, in fact, they want to be responsive and want to work
with us.

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So the conversations are occurring, but the
letter was never officially sent. After talking it over
with folks at Commerce, we felt like maybe it was better
to not start down a path in writing that might not end up
being the best path to go.

But the conversations are ongoing, and I really
know about that much of it. I don't know whether Bruce
has more information on the nature of those conversations
and how they've progressed or not.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Mr. Cooper?

MR. COOPER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Charles, on this regulatory agenda, and I'm very
familiar with the years of work that go into getting one
of these passed -

MR. JEFFRESS: Yes, you are.

MR. COOPER: And many of these have been
previous administrations, going way back.

MR. JEFFRESS: Yes.

MR. COOPER: And I'm also familiar with the
massive amount of people you have to go through and delay,
that OSHA has to go through on any standards. I think
most of the people on the committee, but many that are not

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in earshot, don't know that the U.S. Department of Labor
Solicitor's Office informed OSHA a couple of years ago
that the present sanitation form, 1926.51, was not
enforceable in its present form. So we have no sanitation
standard at this moment that is enforceable.

The problem is, that standard at one time was
accepted as a standard, so the difficulty in trying to get
it back -- we were just talking about revising the
sanitation standard.

Larry Edginton hit it right on the head;
those of us that represent people in the construction
industry in this country were stunned by, first of
all--and you've heard this before--missing the time frame
to even get it on close to the agenda and now having it in
the backside agenda. You've heard it all before this
morning.

Now, I am one of the co-chairmen on OSHA 170,
which also, Marie, is a good means for targeting, and it's
important also. But I know of no other standard that is
more important to the people in the workplace than a
place, as Larry Edginton well put it and described it
well, to go to the restroom and a place to wash your

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hands, even if it is available. To me, that's number one.

As far as ergonomics and construction, which was
brought up this morning, I don't know how we can even look
at ergonomics when we can't get the damn sanitation
problem resolved. Now, that's not your fault, but we're
going to blame it on you.

(Laughter)

MR. JEFFRESS: It goes with the territory; I
understand.

MR. COOPER: But that has occurred over time.
Seriously, all the rest of the standards that we're
working on, if we can't get that resolved fast, we're just
wasting a lot of time, playing some kind of game that
never happens.

Now, we all know that many of us will not be on
this committee forever, and heads of agencies come and go,
and administrations come and go. That is what is the
result here of these numerous standards. I can recall the
trenching standard that was worked on for, what was it, 18
years, Steve?

MR. CLOUTIER: A lifetime.

MR. COOPER: I don't even know where it's at,

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now. The person that worked on it for 15 years here died.

(Laughter)

MR. COOPER: That's true.

MR. JEFFRESS: Was it caused by the trenching
standard or lack of sanitation?

MR. COOPER: We will be long gone and this
issue, unless it's addressed in top priority, will fall by
the wayside. And you know what's going to happen 10 years
from now? And you and I will not be here, and we'll
probably be glad we're not.

Someone will bring it up again, and some
assistant secretary will bring it before this committee
again, and assign a workgroup again to look at how we can
get sanitation facilities on a job site.

MR. JEFFRESS: I acknowledge, for the second or
third time, I am getting a very clear message from ACCSH,
a consensus on this area.

(Laughter)

MR. JEFFRESS: I appreciate it. I hear it. I'm
not going to make any public commitments that I can't
keep, so I'll have to talk back to you again about this,
okay?

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MR. COOPER: Well, I just will say this to you
in closing. Everyone in construction, not unlike other
humans, use the restroom every day and wash their hands
every day. When that occurs with you today, would you
think about this?

(Laughter)

MR. JEFFRESS: I will, indeed.

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Ms. Williams?

MS. WILLIAMS: There are other interests that I
had. Form 170. This is another extremely aggressive
workgroup. We have pulled out the stops to deal with
this. We've got joint meetings. We've had internal
meetings.

We will have a recommendation later when that
subject comes up from the workgroup, combined workgroups,
that that also be a priority because we feel that it's
going to not only assist in targeting, but certainly show
you where the emphasis needs, or the fatalities that are
on the rise, so I feel that that support will certainly be
hand in hand with our goal.

MR. JEFFRESS: I'd like ask a question, if I

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could borrow just five more minutes of your time, to help
me understand this issue a little bit. The case and
demographic data that the Bureau of Labor Statistics
produces has historically been the information that OSHA
and other researchers have used to identify the cause of
accidents and fatalities.

That data has been viewed as more representative
and broader than what OSHA collects, so OSHA data has not
previously been viewed as the best source of information,
or precisely what causes fatalities.

But, obviously, there is some concern in the
workgroups that, in fact, Form 170s could give better data
than BLS. I'd like to hear a little bit more about that.

MS. WILLIAMS: I could sum it up by giving you a
very quick, if I may, paragraph. This is the University

of Tennessee Construction Research and Analysts Report
that was given to our workgroup, which Mr. Zettler has
been extremely helpful in getting us to where we were.

MR. JEFFRESS: Yes.

MS. WILLIAMS: And this is an example of what
Form 170 isn't doing. "Of the 604 fatal events in 1997,
121 were coded by OSHA as having been associated with

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steel erection and construction operations.

To verify the coding, CRA randomly selected and
reviewed 25 fatal events so coded by reading the narrative
description of the event and determining whether or not it
was related to steel erection. Nineteen, or 76 percent,
were found not to be related to steel erection, while only
6, 24 percent, were found to be related.

Further analysis of these 25 events indicated
the errors seemed to be randomly distributed by region,
federal/state programs."

So, again, it's been confirmed that the data is
being entered wrong. You're getting false messages from
the review. Plus, the form itself isn't conducive to help
you get the appropriate data anyway.

So the Form 170 workgroup, chaired by Mr. Cooper
and I'm the co-chair, have started to very aggressively
look at what we can change. Data collection had the same
concern, because they want the output data for looking at
where your fatalities are occurring, as well as for the
targeting process.

We combined several meetings so we would all be
on the same path and get a document much sooner, much more

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aggressively. That's where we are now with that issue.
So, that's what we're trying to provide and we're working
with the Directorate very closely. That's why we would
sort of like to have that support.

MR. JEFFRESS: I'm happy to give the support.
The reason I mentioned the BLS data as being superior, is
that the Form 170 reflects only the deaths that OSHA
investigates. A high percentage of deaths, independent
contractors, self-employed people, we don't investigate.
So, I have felt, traditionally, that the BLS is a better
source of causes of fatalities than the OSHA 170, I think.

MS. WILLIAMS: BLS has joined our workgroup, and
they are working with us to interface their coding system

MR. JEFFRESS: Good.

MS. WILLIAMS: -- that it could be mirrored with
the Form 170 in the transition.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Mr. Cloutier?

MR. CLOUTIER: Charles, I want to have to reecho,
I think we're under siege on the sanitation issue.

(Laughter)

MR. CLOUTIER: But I think we're under siege

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right now in this country on fatalities, and the agency
needs to raise the bar up again on some level of
awareness. I think we have a good opportunity, if you've
gotten additional funds for the enforcement program, and
the outreach program, and your information technology
systems, that every fat-cat report that goes out, and
every investigation that's generated -- we used to have a
tool that came out on a regular basis, the Fatal Facts,
and it's kind of gone by the wayside.

I would think, during the process of the
investigation, that there should be a template that a
Fatal Facts could be generated every time we go and do a
fat-cat report, and it can go on the web site immediately.
The numbers I have in the first five months of this year,
there were 654 construction workers killed.

I know last week in North Carolina, on Friday,
there were three killed in a tower incident; there were
six fire fighters killed over the weekend; there were 13
migrant workers killed in an automobile accident.

Fatalities. We're under siege. We're under
siege on the Port-o-Johns, but we're under siege with
these fatalities. I think every time that we do an

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investigation, part of the investigation should generate
that Fatal Facts, it should go on the web site, and you
guys can generate one every day, five a day, on a regular
basis.

It should be part of the investigation, because
you're going to fill in the blank, put the information
down, and get it out to folks, because it's a good
training tool that will reach employers, employees, the
industry, broad-based. And we share in this horrible loss
in Worcester, Massachusetts over the weekend. It's just
unreal.

MR. JEFFRESS: Right.

MR. CLOUTIER: I'm deeply concerned about it.
know my company's had an incident this year, and we're
refocused. We've covered all the bases, and we still had
one and don't like it.

MR. JEFFRESS: I appreciate your comment on
that. I have heard from others that, in fact, that kind
of short summary, this is what killed somebody, is a good
reminder and a good educational tool.

MR. CLOUTIER: This one that happened in North
Carolina last Friday was a family. It was a father, a

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stepson, a friend of the stepson.

MR. JEFFRESS: Right.

MR. CLOUTIER: The wife was there. It's a small
painting contractor.

MR. JEFFRESS: They were riding a line.

MR. CLOUTIER: They were riding a line.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I, along with Steve, am
absolutely appalled at the fatalities. For employers to
place employees in a position where they can get killed,
is also appalling to me.

We had a couple of subcontractors this year who
had fatalities, and our chief operating officer sent an
absolutely blistering letter to the various presidents of
the 132 Bechtel entities.

They got the message real quick, that he is
absolutely adamant that we will not tolerate any employees
being placed in positions where they could potentially
injure themselves or injure someone else. When the CEO of
the company blisters his presidents, it trickles down.

If more employers like Steve and myself, and I
know Steve's CEO does the same thing, they get the message
pretty soon of what the company believes in, and if they

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get that message, they start believing in the same thing.
I think we need more of that in America today.

MR. JEFFRESS: Yes. I would encourage you all
to encourage your companies to make those kinds of
messages public so some other construction companies could
see what you all are doing.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie?

DR. SWEENEY: I meant to talk about something
else, but let me just reiterate the issue of the tower
fatalities. OSHA and the National Association of Tower
Erectors have, I guess, just issued some guidelines, or
are on their way to issuing guidelines.

MR. JEFFRESS: Yes.

DR. SWEENEY: I would encourage the agency to
get those guidelines out as fast as possible and to make
sure, through your education, training, and outreach
program that you, in fact, get to the small mom-and-pop
tower erector groups, because the fatalities just keep on
occurring. Three a month is too many.

MR. JEFFRESS: Okay. Actually, those guidelines
were put out last year and we agreed to review them after
a year's use. The time is coming up to do that very

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shortly.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Only to point out that, as
tragic as the situation was in North Carolina, it does
appear that it was maintenance, and what we're doing right
now -

MR. JEFFRESS: And not a recommendation. That's
a good point.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: -- would not penetrate or
have alleviated that situation. I agree that maintenance
people ought to be using the same guidelines.

DR. SWEENEY: Absolutely. Absolutely.

MR. JEFFRESS: And that's a good point. The
guidelines for erection are out, but we've not done that
for maintenance. Maybe that's your point.

DR. SWEENEY: Right.

MR. JEFFRESS: Maybe we should do this for
everybody.

DR. SWEENEY: Right. Really. Exactly.

MR. JEFFRESS: Right. Good point.

DR. SWEENEY: The other issue, not to belabor
the point on the 170, is that the OSHA information that is
put into the 170 augments that which is put in by BLS,

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71
because there is a narrative. There is more information
about the fatality.

You can say, well, BLS does have a good
recording system, but I think what OSHA has is added
value. It also helps in the prevention and intervention
area a lot better than what BLS is, which is more just
counting.

MR. JEFFRESS: Okay. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, we've certainly
taken more of your time than you've allowed us.

MR. JEFFRESS: My time is your time.

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Again, I guess this is the
first meeting you've really had to just sit here and
listen to the beautiful noise on sanitary and heat.

(Laughter)

MR. JEFFRESS: No. Actually, I heard it once

before, but I heard it much louder and clearer this time.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: That's good. That's good.
Yes?

MR. McCLEES: Mr. Chairman, you very graciously
allowed members of the public to comment at various times.

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72

I represent a national group and I would like the
opportunity, before Mr. Jeffress leaves, to speak words of
encouragement to him, if appropriate, if you so deem.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Mr. Jeffress, would you
like to hear some beautiful noise other than sanitation?

(Laughter)

MR. JEFFRESS: Oh, no. This is sanitation. I
know Joe well.

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Joe, please come up and
identify yourself.

MR. McCLEES: Mr. Jeffress and I come from the
same state. My name is Joseph McClees. I represent the
Portable Sanitation International Group. We have been at
all the meetings in which the Sanitation Subcommittee
held.

Our role is to assist in technical questions.
We represent 630 businesses in the United States, which is
more than 70 percent of the industry, which is a
tremendous amount. We have tried to provide the technical
stance for all the committee members.

We're proud of where we've gone. We would just

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73

like to encourage my friend from North Carolina to
reconsider his position and to elevate the status of
sanitation in which Jane so notably did.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you, Joe. We
appreciate that.

MR. JEFFRESS: I stand with my friends; what can
I say?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, thank you very much
for coming. We appreciate it.

Prior to the break, I'd like to do two things.
One, is review the agenda. So if you'd get out the
agenda, we have some changes. The next thing we'll do,
will be approval of the September minutes. So if you'll
add that to the agenda.

Then after the break, we'll start with a liaison
report from Jane Williams. Jane is our liaison to NACOSH,
and she'll give a report on the NACOSH meeting. Also,
we've added an agenda item, ACCSH Guidelines. Jane has a
motion to make on the ACCSH guidelines.

This afternoon, we're going to switch the public
comment period and the ACCSH planning session, so we're

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74
going to start the ACCSH planning session at probably
3:00, and then the public comment period will be after the
ACCSH planning session.

For tomorrow, the Safety and Health Program
Standard Report is 9:30 to 9:45, not 10:45. Steve can't
talk that long. Then we'll have the public comment period
prior to adjourning tomorrow. So, if you'll make those
corrections.

One more thing, Mr. Cooper, then we'll break.
If you'll get out the minutes of the September 2-3
meeting, it's in your green packet. Quickly take a look
at those. If you have any changes or revisions, please
note.

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Mr. Edginton?

MR. EDGINTON: Mr. Chairman, only because it's a
matter that this is the formal record, it has come to my
attention that my last name continues to be misspelled
throughout these minutes.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: You hadn't recognized that
before?

MR. EDGINTON: Well, I had.

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75

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We will so make that
correction, and apologize for the misspelling of your name
in the minutes.

MR. EDGINTON: Personally, I've sort of given up
on it long ago.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: But it's worth a try, huh?

MR. EDGINTON: I've lived through it my whole
life.

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Any other comments or
changes?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Hearing none, do I hear a
motion to approve the minutes?

VOICE: So moved.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Second?

VOICE: Second.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Moved and seconded. Any
discussion?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Hearing none, all in favor
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of approval of the minutes, signify by saying aye.
(Chorus of ayes)
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Opposed?
VOICE: No.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Minutes approved.
We'll now take a break and return at 10:20.
(Whereupon, at 10:05 a.m., the meeting was

recessed.

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AFTER RECESS

(10:15 a.m.)
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: The first item on the
agenda now is Jane and her liaison report to the NACOSH
meeting.

Jane?

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78

LIAISON REPORT FROM NACOSH MEETING

By Jane Williams
MS. WILLIAMS: Mr. Chairman, I have provided a
copy of my report to you in each of the members' packets.

Just in summary, I won't go into the detail,
Joann is no longer here. Joann Gudel had some
conversations with me as a public representative, and it
was voiced that for quite some time the NACOSH, which is
the other sister committee to ACCSH, would like to have
some liaison work in between the two committees.

It just happened that this committee meeting had
several issues that ACCSH had, in fact, either addressed
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79
or was addressing, so I was asked if I could attend that
meeting, and you graciously allowed me to do so.

So I did attend. I really was very amazed at
the issues that we are both facing. They had been asked
to review issues very specifically that ACCSH had, in
fact, reviewed, one being the certification elimination of
documents.

I was very delighted that NACOSH totally
supported -- they did not realize that it was our
recommendation, but theirs ended up being exactly the same
as ACCSH, that these documents have a very specific
meaning, and it really was very desirable to remain in
place to provide training for our workers.

They had behavioral safety issues, worker injury
discipline issues, worker involvement, consistency,
strategic plans, and so forth, many, many ACCSH issues.

The new term with Mr. Orton. And Mr. Orton
really welcomed the relationship between ACCSH and NACOSH,
acknowledged several comments that we had had. Actually,
it was a very good structural meeting. I really did enjoy
it. They have invited me to attend their next meeting,
which is in January.

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The only thing that I would bring to you, which
I thought was quite interesting, was Mr. Jeffress started
the meeting with Linda Rosenstock, just as he does with
ACCSH, and gave his agency update.

But at the conclusion of their meeting, which
was a day-and-a-half, two-day meeting, he came back to the
committee and they summarized all of their discussions, or
if any issues came up, and told him of additional issues
that were not able to be discussed with him prior. I
thought that was very effective.

I know in our own cases, we've had issues that
we've had to rely on the Directorate to bring back to his
attention, and sometimes we don't get a feeling if it's
done or not.

So, I would like to recommend that maybe the
Chair consider his feelings on that issue, and see if that
would be something that Mr. Jeffress would consider doing
with ACCSH, just as he is doing with NACOSH.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So noted. Thank you.

Any comments or questions for Jane on the NACOSH
meeting?

DR. SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman?

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie?

DR. SWEENEY: I've been instructed by my
division director that I will be attending NACOSH
meetings. If, in fact, Jane can't attend, I would happily
take her place, if need be. Be a replacement.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Oh. Thank you very much.
Now that you're back with us again, participating fully,
which we're all excited about.

Thank you, Jane.

ACCSH WORKGROUP REPORTS

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Now, our first workgroup
report, Musculoskeletal Disorders, Michael and Marie.

MUSCULOSKELETAL DISORDERS

By Dr. Sweeney

DR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Our meeting was held on Tuesday, December 7th.
We actually had an extremely good turnout, between 25 and
30 people at the meeting. We had extremely good
participation.

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82

In the first part of the meeting, we decided to
go over all the activities and charge of the workgroup,
and some of the activities that we plan on doing in the
future.

We also polled the various participants and
attendees of the meeting and asked them what kind of
activities they or their organization are engaging in to
prevent musculoskeletal disorders on their site, or what
are they doing to enhance performance through good
ergonomics. We had some very good feedback. You will
find that information in the report in your packets.

In addition, we want to thank Mr. Berrien
Zettler for sitting in at the meeting, and explaining the
agency's position on what will happen with the draft
document that was submitted to OSHA from ACCSH last
meeting. That's the brochure that was developed. He
really discussed at length that this was not intended to
be an enforcement document, it is entirely for educational
purposes.

As Mr. Jeffress said this morning, that is
specifically holding to the party line. As a note from
the co-chair, I hope more will be done in terms of

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83

education, in terms of construction ergonomics.

Finally, we had a presentation by Dr. Laura
Welch, who is currently with the Washington Hospital
Center. She is formerly with the George Washington
University and was funded through the Center to Protect
Workers' Rights by NIOSH to do research on construction
ergonomics. And one of the studies that she has done over
the last 10 years is to look at musculoskeletal disorders
in sheet metal workers.

She explained some of the results of that
research, and then also talked at length with the group on
issues of intervention and solutions that had been
discussed with folks who were doing sheet metal work, the
HVAC community. I think, in general, those people who
attended enjoyed and were informed by this lecture and by
the discussion that ensued afterwards.

Michael Buchet, my co-chair, and I have agreed
that what we would like to do is bring more people in to
describe the research and the activities, the solutions
and interventions that have been identified to reduce
musculoskeletal disorders in construction work. We're
beginning to accrue a list of people we would like to

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84

bring in.

We know a lot of the researchers in academics,
but we would also like to have contractors and folks from
the industry come in and explain to us their needs, and also some of the things that they have been doing.

One invitation that was put forward, was that
there be a meeting or a round table at the Chicago Land
Construction Conference in February. We had spoken to a
couple of individuals who thought they might be able to
bring in some contractors to discuss in a round table
forum some of the issues related to construction
ergonomics.

Michael, would you like to add anything to this?

MR. BUCHET: I have nothing.

DR. SWEENEY: That concludes my presentation.
Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you.

We're basically targeting four workgroups for
Chicago: MSDs, Multi-Employer, Fall Protection, and Safety
and Health Program Standards. The concept I have, and you
need to think about this between now and this evening when
we go through the agenda, but each of you would get two

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85
hours on Monday. Each workgroup would get two hours on
Monday, so all the attendees who wished to participate
could attend all four of the workgroup sessions.

I know there is not a lot of time in two hours
to accomplish a whole lot, but I think if we structure it
right and spend the majority of the two hours soliciting
input from the participants that come to the sessions, we would benefit greatly from that. So think about that, and
we'll discuss it later today.

Any questions or comments on MSD on Marie's
report?
(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Hearing none, thank you.
Data Collection. Mr. Buchet?

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DATA COLLECTION

By Michael Buchet

MR. BUCHET: Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Data Collection met yesterday. We had planned a
fairly aggressive agenda and managed to accomplish one
item.

A gentleman by the name of Don Peterson, who has
retired from the Bureau of Labor Statistics in their San
Francisco office, kindly came and gave us a presentation
that generated so many questions, that we used up the
whole of our time discussing them. I'll give you a brief
outline of what he had to say.

He has some interesting ideas on how to assist
OSHA in this quandary over targeting, how to maximize the
use of resources on work sites where we will find things
that need to be corrected to make the site safer, as
opposed to going out on work sites where they basically
get a check and OSHA has to walk away and say, well,
here's another site that's in compliance.

His ideas revolved greatly around the use of

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experience modification rating systems and Worker's Compensation. We had an instructive review of the

Worker's Comp mod system and some of the organizations
that captured that data, the availability of the data, and

how the data does or does not compare with incident rates,
how we might be able to compare state-based data, which
the EMRs are, across state borders.

We found that we have many, many more questions
for Mr. Peters and many more questions for the workgroup,
a number of them surrounding BLS's telling us a great deal
about how they do their construction sample in the annual
survey, and them some about how OSHA does its data
initiative, although it's not covering construction, if it
might cover construction, and then also looking some more
at the use of Work Comp data and how to find the Work Comp
data.

I will end my report with that. We had more
questions than answers out of this session, though it was

a very productive session.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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DATA COLLECTION (Continued)

By Marie Haring Sweeney, Ph.D.

DR. SWEENEY: I have one thing to add, Mr.
Chairman. We also discussed the need to bring in somebody
from BLS to talk about the annual survey and what they do
with construction, because a lot of questions were brought
up as to the sampling methods, the representativeness of
the various companies that come in the sample.

So maybe not at the Chicago meeting, but in May,
we'll bring in somebody from BLS to talk to us about the
annual survey. I imagine there will be a lot of people
who will be interested.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you.

Felipe?

MR. DEVORA: Michael, let me ask you about the

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modifier information that you're talking about. Are you
representing that they're going to be able to draw some
statistical information from Worker Comp mods, is that it?

MR. BUCHET: The presentation suggested that,
with some kind of manipulation, that that could be done.
But the workgroup had some reservations on how well that
would serve OSHA's targeting purposes.

MR. DEVORA: Yes. I have the same questions
about mods. You're right, manipulation comes -

MR. BUCHET: Yes. We had all sorts of questions
about what would be done once you got the mod. It's a
three-year average and it's old information. The mod goes
to the employer's main address, not necessarily to a
specific work site. OSHA is looking at a work site, not
necessarily the employer.

There's no way of guaranteeing, once you got
that, that the employer is still in business. I mean,
there were a whole series of things that we needed to
resolve before we can make a recommendation on this topic.

MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Owen.

MR. SMITH: I wasn't there; I wish I had been.

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90

But I think the information coming from those comp
carriers is pretty good because they capture every
accident. They ask how the accident happened, whether
there's a death or not. Those guys have very good
information.

Even though they may re-rate you every year,
they drop off one year. So the mod determines how much
you're paying, but they know every accident. The
employers all report it, because if you don't report it,
you end up paying for it out of your pocket.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Michael?

MR. BUCHET: We've recognized that. But we also
recognize that, within a state, that may be a fairly
useful tool. But if you go across the state line, one,
there is no guarantee that the information -- the data
sources that Mr. Peterson was discussing captures the same
information about the same group of employers across state
lines.

So for OSHA's purposes, nationally, there would
be no way of comparing your experience in California,
though California is a bad example. There would be no way
at the moment of comparing two federal/state employers in

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91

different states where OSHA has jurisdiction.

The other thing is, there is no guarantee that
all the employers are in this data. Self-employeds are
not in the data.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: OCCPs are not in the data.
MR. BUCHET: OCCPs. Yes. There are several
groups of people who are not in the data. One of the
questions that we had for this gentleman was, do you know
what part of the construction industry you can't capture
any data on? Don't know. There are problems with the
classification systems. I'm using the word problems.
There would be issues with the classification system.

Work Comp data is not necessarily based
precisely on the sick codes that BLS and OSHA are using,
they're based on the insurer's some kind of occupational
classification system. So there are a lot of little
things that would have to be tweaked to make this even an
approachable system. At least, that's what we're dealing
with at this point.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Bob?

MR. MASTERSON: Not only that, a lot of the data
that the insurance company is going to have is going to be

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very subjective data, based on what the employer has
reported or what the employee reported. I found that a
lot of the data that I get back from the insurance company
doesn't even resemble what went into the system.

MR. BUCHET: We also discussed the fact that the
EMR is a number developed with, we're not sure, 20, 25
plus discrete bits of data that go into the compilation.
Only one or two of those may actually reflect the number
of injuries for a particular employer during a particular
time frame.

So you can have an EMR that is sky high, and
because of many other factors you may actually be average
in that population, but because you have a sky-high
incident rate, you might be somebody that OSHA really
would want to look at, in which case that EMR wouldn't
drive OSHA to look at those people because they all struck
an average, which was an extremely high rate.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Harry?

MR. PAYNE: Since 1993, we have tried to use the
EMR as a system of targeting in addition to the other
methods. We have found that half the people who go to
work in North Carolina do not do so in an environment with

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a published EMR.

We have found also that it is skewed against the
smaller business in terms of, if a 12-person business has
a third party accident, and pending the resolution of the
accident they've got a strangely high claim and we end up
showing up in places we don't need to be, we also have
experienced coding problems with the Worker's Comp system,
that they code things back, neck, you know. It doesn't
tell us much.

So we're moving more to a claims made basis,
looking at frequency in the population as a better
predictor. It's not perfect, but it's more current.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: One thing, Michael, you
and Marie might share if you want to, is some of the
percentages that he showed yesterday of incident rates of
ex-contractors whose lost work day case rate is 16 and up,
and what percentage of them. I mean, I thought that was
unbelievable. Do you have that? Did you bring it?

MR. BUCHET: I didn't bring it.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie, did you bring it?

DR. SWEENEY: No, but that was with the OSHA
initiative data.

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Right. Right.

DR. SWEENEY: Okay. It's not with the NCCI
data. Let me just try to recall. But, in general, the
OSHA initiative data takes like 80,000 employers, and
those 80,000 employers do not include construction. If
you look at what they represent over all industries in the
United States, it only represents 1.6 percent of all
employers in private industry.

So it really is probably under representing. It
more than likely is under representing the "high hazard"
industries because it doesn't include construction. I'm
not sure if it includes mining. It probably doesn't
include agriculture. But this is what a third party was
saying about the OSHA initiative data and, in fact, we
probably, at the next meeting, should, in fact, have
somebody come and explain that data set to us.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: One of the things I
commented on, BLS samples -- at the end of the year, when
you get your BLS form, they send out 220,000 of those,
50,000 of them are construction-related forms, that go to
construction-related employers. So that's 50,000 out of
340,000 active construction employers in the United States

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that are sampled.

So, on the basis of that, even using the coefficient
factors that they say they factor in -- and
Michael brought up an excellent comment yesterday about a
small employer in Florida using the same co-efficient as
an employer in Alaska and not even taking into account the
frigid weather conditions, the slippery conditions that
you would find with an Alaskan contractor that you
certainly wouldn't fine with a Florida contractor, but
they use the same co-efficient to determine the sampling
level.

So a 50,000 sample is even times the coefficient,
it's my opinion, and has been for years, that
they're not getting the true numbers. So when you see the
published incident rates for SIC Code 16, 15, or 17,
depending on which of the three you're in, I think those
are skewed terribly.

In my personal opinion, they're skewed low. I
think a lost work day case rate in America for SIC Code 16
is somewhere in the neighborhood of 12, not somewhere in
the neighborhood of 5. But, again, that's my personal
opinion.

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DR. SWEENEY: So what we're talking about here,
is that construction is probably unrepresented, or not
represented well, by either BLS and not represented by the
OSHA initiative data. I think we really need to see how
we can better work with BLS and work with OSHA to better
get representation of construction companies.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: That might be a
consideration for the May agenda.

Bruce, would you like to comment?

MR. SWANSON: Yes. Just a couple of quick
comments. The targeting system that OSHA is using in
general industry, obviously intentionally, excludes
construction. The mobile work site issue is a problem.

What we want to do, is do site-specific
inspections and inspect those employers at those sites
where the employer is four times above the national
average for its SIC code, and we take these 80,000. We
went through the general industry SICs and picked those
SICs which our experience indicates are the most hazardous
for the American worker.

Then we took 80,000 employers off that list and
mailed to them inquiring as to their OSHA 200s, and that

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indicates that you're dealing with a certain size class
employer. But it is not fatal in the general industry, as
it would be in the construction industry, where 80 percent
of the employers are not required to keep OSHA 200 logs.

Marie is absolutely right. It obviously
excludes the mining rates. That's an MSHA issue. It
excludes agriculture for other reasons, but largely
because of the way employment works in the agricultural
industry, although there are some exceptions, particularly
when you get into processing, the step beyond agriculture.

But OSHA feels that the targeting system that it
is using for general industry is quite successful. We
believe it is doing a better job putting us where we
should be and providing us the data that we need to obtain
search warrants on those occasions where an employer has
indicated that he's not going to open the door for our
inspection, we have a basis.

In the construction industry, you're all
familiar with the long-ago Barlow case, and we have to
target from a neutral source document. We use the Dodge
report, which tells us where activities are under way in
construction.

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But it tells us absolutely nothing about the
experience of the employer by name who is on that job
site. Then large employers will have different experiences, as several at this table can attest, from
site to site across the country for various reasons.

So don't shoot Mr. Peterson yet. Anything that
we can obtain that is a better indicia than reaching into
the bean jar and scheduling our inspections on a random
basis, like the Dodge report now does, would be an
improvement.

Of course, we do, as everyone at the table again
knows, a lot of local emphasis programs, special emphasis
programs, where we attempt to enhance our presence in
those industries where we know that we are having problems
with fatalities and injury rates.

Again, there are people at the table, such as
Mr. Masterson, who could indicate that there are areas in
the country where we have a local emphasis program going
on in a particular industry because we know that's a
problem. That is still not a finite tool, however.

To go to a job site because they fall within a
particular SIC still does not indicate that OSHA is making

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the best use of its very limited resources because
employers within a given SIC run a whole range of cultures
as well as to how much attention they pay to safety and
health of their employees. So, in closing, let me say
once more, don't shoot Mr. Peterson just yet. Thanks.

MR. BUCHET: We didn't shoot Mr. Peterson. In
fact, we invited him to continue the discussion and asked
him some questions that he said he would provide us
further answers on. He's interested in continuing the
discussion.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie?

DR. SWEENEY: One more comment on just another
topic related to data collection. We were handed, I don't
know if it was a Federal Register notice, but from the
Bureau of Labor Statistics, that the Office of Management
and Budget now has changed the standard occupational
classifications starting in January of 2000, and that
construction and mining occupations are going to be in the
same classification. So, it's construction and
extraction.

Please be aware that, if you're looking at that
whole classification, you are dealing with people who are

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100
roof bolters in addition to folks who are pipe fitters.

So I don't know what that effect is going to be
in the data. I don't know if Bruce has any information.
We might have to, again, talk to Bureau of Labor
Statistics because that fact may change how you look at
the data, the fatality and injury data.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Including mining will
certainly drive the number up.

DR. SWEENEY: Up.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Mr. Cloutier. I knew
you'd have a comment on record keeping.

MR. CLOUTIER: I think there's another area that
OSHA could tap into, and we've talked about it on and off
for a number of years. That's looking at building
permits, whether they're issued locally, geographically,
by the state, by the local folks.

It's another potential resource to identify
structural projects. Of course, I've always said, when
all else fails, get out of the office and drive around
town, you can find a whole lot of work going on.

But I think that's an area, when you guys are
talking with BLS and you're talking about EMRs, that maybe

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101
we ought to look at that avenue as well, and that's the
permitting of construction projects as a potential
database to reach out as a source. We know the Dodge
reports only capture 60, 65 percent of the work in the
country, or less.

MR. SWANSON: And let me be brief. But several
area offices are using the local licensing facilities,
building permits, et cetera, to target. It's a patchwork
system because sometimes you have a cooperative
municipality and sometimes you don't.

I know you were being facetious when you
suggested, drive around and look for where the work is
being done, because that would violate what the Supreme
Court has told us we can do. We never do that, Steve.

MR. CLOUTIER: I understand that, Mr. Swanson.
But that seems to be how we generate a lot of referrals.

MR. SWANSON: That's an entirely different
matter, sir.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Moving right along. Any
other comments on data collection? Mr. Buchet.

MR. BUCHET: Maybe it would be instructive to
have another presentation on how the Dodge report system

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works.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: How the Dodge report
system doesn't work would be the better way to say it.

MR. BUCHET: Well, whichever way, half full or
half empty. It is a system that is working that a lot of
us lose our comprehension of routinely, and then we start
the discussion all over again.

My understand was, part of the Dodge report
process was to scour the country for building permits and
that they have whatever number thousand of operatives it
is all over the country doing precisely that so it's being
collected in some form.

I also think they claim to represent a whole lot
more coverage of the construction industry than some of us

think it has. I don't know what the number is any more, but I've heard from 50 to 90.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: There's a dollar value
amount.

MR. BUCHET: Well, we've heard that discussion
before. Depending on what you pay them to give you, they
will go down to -- I believe they captured down to 50,000
bucks, but again, that's my remembrance of a particular

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103
presentation. So we could do it in data collection again
and see if we could get a firmer understanding of where
the process exists now and work from that.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Let's seriously take a
look, at the May meeting of next year, at having a lot of
this general discussion on what we talked with Charles
about this morning, about the flow process of standards
from the time we pass on a recommendation and where it
goes to the end.

Let's take a look at the record keeping and the data collection and bringing in some of those people so
the whole committee can hear. I thought the presentation
from Peterson yesterday was fantastic. He could tone it
down a little bit, but I mean other than that it would be
a good thought.

And Marie, maybe someone from NIOSH that is
involved in data, let's put maybe a half a day on that. So think about that, and we'll move on. Okay.

Cranes. Mr. Edginton?

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SUBPART N - CRANES

By Mr. Edginton

MR. EDGINTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Subpart N workgroup met yesterday afternoon.
We continue to have good representation from all parties
of interest. We had representatives there from crane
users, crane manufacturers, crane operators, crane
certifiers, crane operator/certifiers. We have a real
good cross section of participation and I'm glad to see
that continue.

We are moving forward, as we've said before, in

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105
taking a look at the subpart. One area we've been working
on is attempting to develop scope language. We think
that's important.

The current subpart is somewhat deficient in
that regard, and we think that is an important first step.
We're sort of attempting to define what equipment we're
talking about, what's really in, what's clearly out, those
types of things.

To assist us in that, we have, of course, been
looking at the NCP 30 and their thoughts on that. We have
also begun to look at Canadian Z150. What they've been
doing up there, we find to be somewhat instructive.

One thing we've been struggling with, and we'll
continue to work on, is what to do about helicopters as
lifting devices. They're currently included in the
subpart.

I, myself, have had a brief conversation with a
representative of one of their trade associations and I
was somewhat surprised to learn that he didn't understand
that there were OSHA regulations applicable to helicopters
when they were used as lifting devices.

I mean, their whole organizational focus had

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106
been on Department of Transportation, FAA regulatory
activities, and really had never looked at the safety
aspects of lifting.

So we can't quite decide yet what to do with
those beasts. I think we're going to be reaching out to
them somewhat more to get their thoughts on that, because
we recognize that we don't have that expertise in the
circle yet on a regular basis.

One of the things that clearly has come forward
to the subgroup, is that people believe that this is
important. That it's important that OSHA have a state-ofthe-
art, if you will, standard with respect to the
operation and maintenance of cranes.

There is some level of frustration in the
workgroup regarding the pace, if you will, of our work.
People would like to move faster than we have been. We're
going to attempt to do a better job of rescheduling
meetings, or scheduling meetings more frequently. We will
be so advising the Chair that we may be meeting at times
other than in conjunction with the ACCSH meetings, because
we want to get moving on that.

But one of the things that came out in the
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107
latter part of yesterday's meeting, again, in the interest
of trying to provide the agency with a state-of-the-art
recommendation, is how best that could be accomplished.

There was a very strong feeling from workgroup
participants that they recommended to both Jane and myself
yesterday, is that ACCSH give consideration to
recommending through the Directorate to OSHA that this be
a subject area for negotiated rule making.

What I would like to do is distribute sort of
the thoughts of the group yesterday, and talk about them a
little bit. I might add, I know we have a couple of our
workgroup members in the audience this morning,
representing both users and manufacturers.

Their thinking yesterday seemed to be along
these lines, Mr. Chairman. And that is that the subpart,
in its current form, is about 30 years old. As such,
those of us who work in the industry recognize that there
has been considerable change in work processes and
considerable technological change in craning.

As a matter of fact, there are now cranes out
there on the road that are used predominantly within the
industry that simply didn't exist when this subpart was

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adopted.

There is a strong feeling amongst all the
parties of interest that this deficiency neither enhances
or promotes worker safety or helps employers in
understanding what their operation and maintenance
obligations are under the Act, nor does it provide
sufficient guidance to OSHA compliance staff.

Again, these are points that are being made by
the parties of interest, to say, look, this is really
important. Cranes are the consequences of accidents or
improper maintenance of cranes contributing to accidents
plays an important role in the safety of the construction
workplace.

Moreover, there was a concern expressed with
respect to the ACCSH work process. We think we have the
right people at the table. We might want to cast our net
somewhat more broadly, as I said, but we think we can
produce a quality work product.

However, given, again, this stated deficiency,
there is some question as to whether or not the ACCSH work
group process is the most effective process to bring about
the timely change which the parties believed.

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So what they had requested Jane and myself to do
this morning, was to introduce this motion with the clear
understanding that it's the intention of the workgroup to
continue to meet and work while the agency considers this
request.

Jane, do you have any additional comments or
thoughts?

MS. WILLIAMS: No. I think, Larry, you covered
it quite well.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We have a motion presented
by the Subpart N workgroup. Is there a second, for
discussion?

MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, there is.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Motion and second. Open
to discussion. Mr. Buchet?

MR. BUCHET: I would like to congratulate Mr.
Edginton for, once again, bringing up field sanitation.
believe he said they spent a lengthy amount of time
discussing soap recommendations. This is a joke.
realize it was SOP.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Anything to get sanitation
back on the table.

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Felipe?

MR. DEVORA: With that thought in mind, what
were your expectations of the near future?

MR. EDGINTON: We were very tempted to say,
look, we want an answer back by the next ACCSH meeting.

MR. DEVORA: Yes. That's what I'm saying.

MR. EDGINTON: But at the same time, we
recognize that their agenda may not necessarily be our
agenda at the moment. There's got to be some give and
take, though. Clearly, the sense was sooner than later.

MR. DEVORA: Years or months?

MR. EDGINTON: Months.

MR. DEVORA: Months. Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: In helping to better
understand this, steel erection was an ongoing revision
for about five or six years back and forth to ACCSH, to
OSHA, back and forth, back and forth.

Then when they reached, I guess, a point of no
return, may be a term to use, they recommended negotiated
rule making. The Assistant Secretary formed SENRAC
because they had reached a point in the workgroup, and
within OSHA, I would think, where it was unresolvable.

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111

I think that's what negotiated rule making is
more intended for, is when it gets to the point where
industry, labor, and OSHA come to an unresolvable dispute
or get to a point where they need something like
negotiated rule making. I'm not sure your workgroup has
had enough time to get to that point.

MR. EDGINTON: Well, we have begun to bump upon
that, when we talked about scope, for example, in terms of
what equipment should or should not be considered to be a
lifting device, or a hoisting device.

For example, one of the things we were talking
about yesterday has to do with the use of excavators as
lifting devices, and when they're used as lifting devices,
whether or not their operation and maintenance should be
covered by this subpart.

It's a practice that is found throughout the
industry, but there was a wide disparity of opinion in the
group, particularly from underground contractors saying,
no way. But these are the kinds of things that we think
could be worked through through the negotiated rule making
process.

Again, the issue of helicopters, should they be

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112
in or out. The concern was that, as we work through this
as a work group, Mr. Chairman, one recommendation was,
look, maybe what we do is identify areas of concern which
we are unable to reach a consensus on. But the concern of
many of the workgroup members was, well, if we have done
that, what have we gained?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jane?

MS. WILLIAMS: Just to add a little comment on
that, and maybe Sarah or Bruce could inform me because I
don't have all this, but I'm under the impression that the
negotiated rule making brings together very specific
participants and that they can arrange schedules, meet
more often, and truly address very specific issues that
would include OSHA participation as well as everybody else
who needs to come to that table in a very timely and
effective method with the ACCSH process.

We can't garner that many participants, and
those who do spend a tremendous amount of time and
financial output to participate. We felt this would be an
extremely good way of bringing to the table those persons
that certainly would know the issue, and having OSHA
participate with us at the level of persons that could

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113

make a difference in the process.

Am I misunderstanding the negotiated rule
making, or can you provide some additional information,
Sarah, Bruce, or whomever?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Bruce?

MR. SWANSON: I'd be happy to provide you
additional information. Some general comments, again, on
management of expectation levels. The SENRAC
negotiations, which were started some four years ago, or
thereabouts, in 18 months, the committee was able to
produce a reg text.

The reason they were able to do that, is because
of the advantages that committee process has over a
committee such as this which meets several times a year,
or even there was more expertise available than OSHA
itself was able to provide through a standards office.

But, as I've heard the Assistant Secretary share
with this group before, the reg text gets you about 10
percent of the way home. And once you have the reg texts,
there is then the economic analysis of its impact on the
regulated community to do, and there's the writing of the
preamble, and there's the various levels of review, and

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114
there's the issue of further hearings in other settings
such as SBREFA hearings that other federal legislation might require us to go through.

Everything after the 10 percent of getting the
reg text done, everything else then competes for more
limited resources in house, where we can't draw upon the
expertise of the community at-large, such as doing an
economics assessment, and how is this going to impact on
the regulated community.

So I am neither encouraging nor discouraging any
conversation about having neg reg on cranes. But if you
do have neg reg on cranes, and two years or three years
from now you have a reg text, then you are going to run
into the bottlenecks that were alluded to this morning by
the Assistant Secretary, and then that year's sanitation
standard will be put on a side track so that we can do the
economic analysis. So it helps, but it only helps part
way. It's not a total solution.

MS. WILLIAMS: But all those additional
processes, they would have to occur regardless, would they
not?

MR. SWANSON: Correct.

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MS. WILLIAMS: So we would be gaining the
ability of getting the process with a much more controlled
method and a timely effect.

MR. SWANSON: Yes. But all I'm trying to do is
manage expectations here. It will speed up a part of what
gets done. I believe that the 18 months in writing a reg
text by the SENRAC committee, although Mr. Cooper is not
here, although others will tell you it's not the fastest
thing they've ever seen done, it was a real benefit over
relying on us to do it ourselves. But it only got us part
way home, and then people got anxiety ridden over the
intervening three years when the other steps were gone
through.

MS. WILLIAMS: Understood.

MS. SHORTALL: I would add one thing. It may,
but not for sure, eliminate one step. That is, the SBREFA
process. That's the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement
Fairness Act. Where you have a significant impact on
small employers, we're required to go through this process
in the proposed rule making.

However, where there are assurances made to the
Small Business Administration that, in fact, we have

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116

achieved good input and participation among small
businesses, sometimes they release us from that process.
In fact, they did release us from that process in steel
erection. But it is not a guarantee.
MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

MR. EDGINTON: Mr. Chairman, I think there was a
clear understanding amongst workgroup participants, and
certainly in myself and Jane yesterday as we were kicking
around this idea, it certainly was not viewed as a silver
bullet, that in six months we'll have some language and in
a year we'll have the change. We never envisioned that.
It was clearly never anyone's understanding. However,
clearly, people felt that it was better to be 10 percent
down the road in a year or 18 months than something far
less than that through the ACCSH workgroup process.

That was a concern that was being expressed, is
we will develop an ACCSH workgroup recommendation, that
then will get put into the mill along with everybody else,
and we're fighting for time then.

We thought that perhaps it was better to have
the conversation with the agency about the priorities with
respect to this other 90 percent of the work than it is

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even trying to get it in the loop for the first 10

percent.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Michael?

MR. BUCHET: I have the privilege of still
sitting on a negotiated rule making committee, and it does
work very well, but it is certainly not the panacea that
we might be expecting it to be. Nobody is paid to go to
it. You sometimes have to depend on the kindness of the
people who volunteered to attend to show up.

In the shipyard one that I'm on, we manage to
meet maybe four times a year, and try to move it around
the country to get to the small businesses. That becomes
a real problem, to make sure that you do the outreach
necessary.

One of the things that became apparent, is if we
had done more homework before we got there, we would have
been able to do more of the reg text creation up front
than we did.

So I encourage the workgroup to continue
negotiating as hard as you can in the workgroup and then
come forward with as much of everybody's position marked
out as possible.

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I don't know if all neg regs are done the same
way, but there is usually a third party facilitator who
cracks the whip and tries to get everybody to come to consensus. It's an interesting process.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Bruce?

MR. SWANSON: A generic comment on neg reg. The
Department of Labor, at its highest level, is on record as
endorsing the process. The big advantage is seen by its
advocates as one of quality rather than speed, and if
there is a time saving, it is a time saving over the
experiences of the 1970s, where it was, every standard was
followed by 10, 15, or 20 years of litigation, and let's
get that out of the picture.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Bear in mind, also, on a
negotiated rule making group or body, as Michael can
attest, and Steve, you have a very broad-based
representation, where in the ACCSH workgroup you have a,
for lack of another word, narrow-focused workgroup.

If the narrow-focused workgroup feels they
cannot come to a uniform consensus of developing
something, just imagine what a wider-ranged focused group,
some of whom may not have the expertise that your

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workgroup might have. If SENRAC took four years, take a
guess.

MR. EDGINTON: Mr. Chairman, we talked about
that yesterday. Again, I think it was the sense of the
group that, yes, they understand that, for lack of a
better way of putting it, there's this inherent danger
that you talk about when you cast the net a little more
broadly and bring in parties of interest, for lack of a
more charitable way of putting it, real or imagined, that
there is some inherent danger to that.

But at the same time, people said, look, that's
going to happen through the rule making process
nonetheless, and we would rather attempt to address the
concerns that everyone has, try to pick from the best
ideas, again, with the goal of trying to create something
state of the art for the agency. Yes, we may take a few
lumps along the way in doing that, but I think that was
clearly understood.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Michael?

MR. BUCHET: A point of clarification. How does
ACCSH continue studying a subject and make recommendations
to the agency while the agency has a negotiated rule

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making that it is undergoing, and faced with creating the
real text?

How would ACCSH, in this particular case, if we
continue discussing cranes and we come up with a
recommendation, after a negotiated rule making committee
is founded, how does the agency put the two
recommendations together, or does the agency have the
ability to put them together to everybody's benefit?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: When SENRAC came to be,
Steve Cooper was chair of the Steel Erection workgroup.
We suspended -- and Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, but I
think we suspended workgroup activities and deferred to
SENRAC, because at the end of SENRAC, their finished
product comes back to ACCSH anyway.

So it's a moot point of having a workgroup at
the same time. It's not accomplishing anything. So I
assume, if we approve this motion, we would suspend the
Crane Subgroup pending -

MR. BUCHET: That's my question, Mr. Chairman.
Because I understood the presentation, that we were going
to continue the workgroup, as well as suggest the
negotiated rule making.

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MR. EDGINTON: Mr. Chairman, so we're clear on
this, what the workgroup discussed yesterday -- again, I
cannot emphasize enough, that the participants feel that
it is extremely important to continue the work on this,
because they didn't want the message communicated to
either ACCSH or to the Directorate that it was the
intention of the workgroup to stop work until such time as
there's an up or down given to the notion of whether or
not it's suitable for negotiated rule making.

Now, having said that, it certainly was not the
intention of the workgroup to have a dual track on this,
is that we're going to keep a workgroup going at the same
time we have negotiated rule making going. That's
certainly not the intention. But until such time that
that decision was made one way or the other, the workgroup
wishes to continue to meet.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay.

Steve?

MR. CLOUTIER: Mr. Chairman, what would happen,
the workgroup would move forward and continue forward.
And once ACCSH got the word yea or nay, and let's say it's
yea that there would be reg neg on Subpart N - Cranes,

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then the workgroup would forward their product to the
negotiated rule making procedures.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Like we did before.

MR. CLOUTIER: Just like we did before. ACCSH
would be represented on the committee, plus anything that
the reg neg came back through would come back to ACCSH one
or two times, at least.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Michael?

MR. BUCHET: Could I, for the purposes of
discussion, suggest a slight modification to the motion?
That, instead of the period after the end, we say take the
period out and put, "based on up-to-date workgroup
output," so that there is no doubt that we're feeding the
workgroup's output into the neg reg process?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Is that change suitable
with the second and the maker of the motion?

MR. EDGINTON: That's fine.

MS. WILLIAMS: Fine.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: You want to say that
again, Michael?

MR. BUCHET: Remove the period after the capital
N, and insert the words "based on up-to-date workgroup

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output."

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: ACCSH workgroup.

MR. EDGINTON: Up-to-date or current?

MR. CLOUTIER: Current.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: ACCSH current workgroup
output.

MR. BUCHET: Yes.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Further discussion?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We have a motion and a
second. The motion now reads, after the addendum, "The
ACCSH Subpart N workgroup requests that ACCSH recommend,
through the Construction Directorate, that OSHA take
appropriate action(s) in the near future to initiated a
negotiated rule making process to revise/update Subpart N
based on up-to-date ACCSH current workgroup output."

All in favor of the motion, signify by saying
aye.

(Chorus of ayes)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Opposed?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: The motion carries. The

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motion will be forwarded to OSHA. Thank you, Larry.
Jane, would you like to give your ACCSH
guidelines?

ACCSH GUIDELINES

By Jane Williams

MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was approached by the Directorate of
Construction's Office regarding the advisory committee
posting documents on the ACCSH web page.

They presented me with some language that would
give ACCSH members the ability, one, to provide the data
that could go on our web site, and more importantly, the
manner in which it should, in fact, come, PDF versus HTML,
and all kinds of interesting other things here. They
can't do certain things with Power Point. There are other
ways that it has to be accomplished.

So the recommendation that I have from Mr.
Zettler and Camille, who is our -- I call her the computer

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guru; I'm sure she has a much more appropriate title. Is
that we incorporate this language into our advisory
committee guidelines so that all our members would have
the knowledge and provide documents in accordance with
these guidelines.

Therefore, I would move that we revise the ACCSH
guidelines to include procedures for posting documents on
the ACCSH web site, as presented to me.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Is there a second to the
motion, for discussion?

MR. BUCHET: Second.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Motion seconded.
Discussion? Marie?

DR. SWEENEY: Can you be a little more specific
as to what the guidelines are?

MS. WILLIAMS: My intent would be to draft these
up and issue a formal document for the committee to
review, and draft revision. But it's basically stating
that, if the documents to be posted have been created in
any other major word processing applications, they will
not remain in their original format. They need to be
translated, or we can provide them in the PDF typical

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format and they will end up on our ACCSH screen.

It's more or less the form of the documents and
the software they need to be in so they can, in fact, be
placed on the web site. If Camille is here, and I don't
know that she is, she certainly could address this.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So you're referring to the
guidelines document that we all are bringing with us to
every meeting?

MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Which I do have.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Where here, Jane, in this
are you looking at revising?

MS. WILLIAMS: Well, the document currently does
not contain any process for us to provide information for
a web site because the web site issue was in creation at
the point of time of the guideline adoption.
So what they're asking us, is to get this
information in the document so that all of our members
would know the standard formats that they need our
information to be submitted electronically, so they can
achieve the posting on our web site.

There's a one-page suggestion, which I'm sure I
could have Mr. Boom or whoever make copies, but primary

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this just says they need it in PDF file, and how we are to
submit it on a disc, and what's going to happen to it if
we do anything differently. It's very simplistic in the
manner in which we give them the data to go on the disc.

DR. SWEENEY: Jane, I don't understand. There's
a lot of work that has to go into putting even a Word
Perfect or a Word document into HTML or PDF. I would like
to see the motion in writing before I vote on it.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Can I make a comment,
Jane? On page 2 of the guidelines, if you'd all open your
guidelines to page 2, "Presentation of Workgroup Reports."
I assume, and maybe I'm assuming incorrectly and that is
quite possible, to include procedures for posting
documents.

"The only documents that would be postable would
be once ACCSH votes on a motion from a workgroup, and that
motion is approved and we forward a document to OSHA.
Then that document becomes postable.

Prior to that, a workgroup report is a draft
report at the time of its presentation to the ACCSH
committee and is not distributed to the public, therefore,
would not be posted." Correct?

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MS. WILLIAMS: That is correct in the product.
However, there are working documents that we have had in
multiple workgroups that we allow people to edit as part
of the participants, and they have been made available to
each of the workgroup members, our minutes of our meeting,
our action summaries of the workgroups, and these are the
types of items they wish to be placed, as an interim
product, on the ACCSH web site, as I understand it, and
has been requested of the Directorate to do, so that
people have more access to the process and to the
workgroup preliminary process. Once we adopt a final
draft product, that's the one that is, in fact, frozen and
goes through the normal process, as I understand it.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I think, even with that
answer, we're contradicting ourselves. If a workgroup has
internal documents that they're working on as a workgroup,
and those internal documents are passed around to the
workgroup participants, that's up to the workgroup chair.

MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: The people that are
entitled to those products are the workgroup members.
Posting a workgroup in-progress document on the ACCSH web

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page is a direct disagreement with what we've agreed to in
posting or handing out material.

I think if you put something on the ACCSH web
page, it's pretty much public knowledge to anybody that
wants to go in there and get it, and that's not the intent
of workgroup documentation.

Again, I may be incorrect, but I'm reading from
our document that we approved. It said the only things
distributed to the public are final documents approved by

the full ACCSH committee and turned over to OSHA. That
would be what would be posted, not internal working
documents of a workgroup.

MS. WILLIAMS: This report that was handed to me
by Mr. Zettler, and Bruce, maybe you can help me out here,
it says, "During the past few months, several documents
have been received for posting at the Advisory Committee
on Construction Safety and Health Internet site.

The OSHA personnel and contractors that maintain
the OSHA Internet site have recommended the following
protocols be followed for efficient processing of these
documents."

I'm not sure, other than the meeting minutes, or

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attendance notices, or things of this issue, our workgroup
meeting dates and stuff, of any postings other than those.
But I don't know that. Truthfully, I really do not.
Bruce, or Berrien, or anyone who's here maybe can give me
some insight, but this was what was presented to me.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Michael?

MR. BUCHET: Some of the things that we've tried
to get to members of the workgroup are very hard to e-
mail. So in the case of like the 170 form flow chart, I
wondered if that could be put at a place where it could be
downloaded, and that may have generated some of this
conversation.

In that particular case, getting comments from
the workgroup is, to me, the most important thing, and how
we get it there is secondary. But there certainly are
places where the concern of what goes completely public
and what goes to the workgroup is worthy of consideration.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: My problem is, if you post
information that is ongoing, or work-in-progress, or
material that is a draft of any type of nature and you
post it on a web page, sometimes it is construed as, boy,
this is it, baby, let's take it and run, or this is what

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they're going to do.

We've recently incurred that with the
musculoskeletal disorders document. Once burned, twice
shy. So I think, from that perspective, I would not look
kindly on posting draft workgroup documents on the web
page.

MS. WILLIAMS: Could we work with the
Directorate to provide that document to them for mailing
or providing to the committee, or would you want the cochairs
to do that function?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I think the co-chairs need
to get with Jim or their liaison member and work out the
appropriate way to do this. I don't think it's the full
ACCSH's job or charge to tell the workgroup chairmen how
to distribute their material.

Felipe?

MR. DEVORA: Certainly in what we already have
now, what I've seen on the web page, are the listings of
the workgroups, who those participants are, and how to get
hold of us. So by my way of thinking, if there was
someone that had a particular interest in an issue of
where we were at, they could contact someone on those

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workgroups.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: And if there's
documentation that is ongoing in the workgroup, and
revisions are being made, and all that kind of stuff, it's
up to the workgroup chairs and the liaison to make the
determination of how to get that material out to the
members of the workgroup prior to the next meeting.

Michael?

MR. BUCHET: Part of the discussion at some
point was how to control access to the information that we
put up on the web page, because it would be a lot easier
to upload a 50-page document that you want people to
comment on and have them download it than it is to e-mail
it or Xerox it and mail it.

I don't know that there's any ability to give
passwords to all the ACCSH members so we could use part of
the site that way, but -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I appreciate your comment
about easiness, but sometimes easiness is not the right
way to do business.

MR. BUCHET: Sure.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie?

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DR. SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman, there are two issues
here. One, is what goes on the ACCSH web site, and the
second one, in Jane's motion, is what the format is,
whether it's an HTML, or PDF, or whatever the other folks
need. I don't think, and not having read the motion, it
deals with what goes on in the web site. Not that this is
not an important thing to be discussed, because it should
be, but I don't think Jane's motion deals with that, does
it?

MS. WILLIAMS: The motion, as was requested of
me by the Directorate, was that, evidently, this is, in
fact, occurring. So from what I'm reading here, this was
something that has happened and that they need it in very
specific format to accomplish their end result.

If we're taking a different position, then we
just need to respond back to the Directorate, no, ACCSH
will not be doing this for these reasons, and we'll
continue to do business as we stated. And I would respond
to Mr. Zettler, being Mr. Swanson here, and tell them that
we cannot pursue this in this manner at this time, or we
need to talk about it more.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. What I'm going

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to ask you to do is take it back to the Directorate for
discussion.

MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Get a clarification of
what the motion means. I agree with Marie, I think it
means something different than what you've said here.
Please take it back to the Directorate, get a
clarification, and if, indeed, you want to re-present this
tomorrow, I'll consider it then.

MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Michael?

MR. BUCHET: A practical concern. If we're
talking about the format for submitting documents, there
is the ability of -- not necessarily the ability of any
one of us to do the conversion.

What we're talking about is attempting to save a
couple of steps. If somebody who creates a document can't
turn it in in PDF or HTML, and it has to be posted, then
that conversion will have to take place somewhere.

MR. BUCHET: And that can take place at the
agency.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Wait a minute. We're

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talking about two different things here. The motion is
for development of procedures for posting documents. It's
not for text format.

MR. CLOUTIER: No, Mr. Chairman, I think you're
wrong.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. Please re-read the
motion.

MS. WILLIAMS: The motion was to revise the
ACCSH guidelines to include procedures for posting
documents on the ACCSH web site. The procedures -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Ah. Ah. No. No.

MS. WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. The procedure,
though, as I read -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: No. Stop a minute. Site,
with a period after the motion. That's the motion,
period. There's no addition to it.

MS. WILLIAMS: But the procedure to develop
would be in the formats which I read, of HTML, PDF, or
whatever. I mean, it's not the procedure that I hand it
to Bruce and say, do it, it's that I've got to give him a
disc that's properly designed -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Then that's why I'm asking

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you to take it back to the Directorate for clarification.

MS. WILLIAMS: I think we've agreed -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: If you wish to represent a
motion tomorrow, please let me know and we'll do it.

MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie?

DR. SWEENEY: Nothing, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Very good. Okay.

It's 11:36. Why don't we adjourn now for lunch.
Be back here at 12:45, and we'll be starting 15 minutes
early. We're adjourned for lunch.

(Whereupon, at 11:36 a.m., the meeting was
recessed for lunch.)

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AFTERNOON SESSION

(12:45 p.m.)
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marthe Kent is going to
come in and talk to us about several of the standards.
Prior to that, in discussions with Bruce and Berrien at
lunch, prior to us leaving tonight, I want an Executive
Session of the committee. So, we will try to have that
prior to the 3:00 ACCSH planning session for Chicago.

Prior to Marthe getting here, Bob, are you
prepared to give your report, please? We'll do the 2:00
report on Fall Protection.

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FALL PROTECTION

By Robert Masterson

MR. MASTERSON: Actually, the Fall Protection
workgroup met yesterday and had presentations by pre-cast
as well as the drilling people, the Drill Shaft
Association. Particularly with the pre-cast, there was
some fairly lively conversation.

We're going to continue to meet. We are
tentatively scheduling another meeting on January 26th
that Danny Evans has been more than gracious in offering
to host.

With that, it's ongoing. We've got some
information, but hopefully at the next ACCSH meeting we'll

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be able to give you a much more in-depth update.
Felipe?
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you, Bob.
Felipe?

FALL PROTECTION (Continued)
By Felipe Devora

MR. DEVORA: What we tried to do at the meeting
yesterday, we were very successful in doing. The 10
issues that OSHA has put in the Federal Register, we've
tried to address them, and in our presentation to the
entire ACCSH we'll have those comments from these
associations.

One of the questions, obviously, yesterday dealt

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140
with pre-cast, one of the issues. The other one dealt
with revisiting the need for fall protection for
operations around drilling shafts. Then the third one
talked about some manufacturers' equipment, body belts
being incorporated into full-body harnesses.

The manufacturers' association of safety and
fall protection equipment was there and they are going to
present us with written comments on these three issues.

So we feel like yesterday we got a good database
on 3 of the 10 issues. The largest issue, or actually two
of them, have to do with residential, and I think Bob is
going to address those.

Our hope is that, in the next -- we really don't
know. Hopefully, maybe even Chicago or the May meeting,
we'll have these comments and we'll have a position paper
and analysis of each one of these issues for ACCSH to vote
on and present to the agency.

Also, now, the official comment period to the
docket on these 10 issues, it was extended three months
ago. It is my understanding that the cut-off date for
comments to the docket are January the 24th, I believe, of
2000. We won't have our presentation finished by that

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time.

That was going to be one of my questions to the
chair, was that, are we necessarily bound by that, to have
our presentation done by the time the comment period in
the docket is over? And maybe we need to ask Bruce about
this.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: No, we don't need to have
it done prior to the ending of the comment period,
however, we need to have it done shortly thereafter.

MR. DEVORA: Okay. You think the May meeting
would be too far after that?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: No, I think that would be
acceptable.

MR. DEVORA: Okay. Because our hope is to get
it out a month or two to the other members before we meet
in May to vote on it.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Appreciating that, in

February, we hope to have a lot of input, right?

MR. DEVORA: Correct. Exactly.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay.

MR. BUCHET: Mr. Chairman, I think if we
remember the earlier presentation on this by, I believe it

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was Mr. Swanson, he recommended that anybody who wanted to
comment also comment directly to the docket as well as to
the whole group.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Correct. We're not a
substitute for that comment.

MR. DEVORA: But we would appreciate your -- you
know, if you don't make the docket by that cut-off date
and there's some concern, certainly send it on to ACCSH
and we'll get your comments in our presentation to OSHA,
or conversely, even if you have sent comments to the
docket, we would appreciate them for our workgroup product
also.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you. Further
discussion?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay.

No Marthe yet, huh?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jane, do you want to do
the OSHA 170 report or do you want to hold that until
after?

MS. WILLIAMS: The Diversified Workforce one

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would be very quick. You want me to do that one?
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. Diversified
Workgroup is fine. Go ahead.

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DIVERSIFIED CONSTRUCTION WORKFORCE INITIATIVES

By Jane Williams

MS. WILLIAMS: The Diversified Construction
Workforce Initiatives workgroup met Monday afternoon, and
what we decided the best way was to approach this subject
is to list the topics that we had and then prioritize
them, so we didn't go to workgroup meeting after workgroup
meeting and do a splattering of everything, but focus on
particular issues.

So, in summary of that meeting, I can tell you
that the ranking that we have will be, 1) we will
concentrate on communications, language, and training
issues in signage; 2) personal protective equipment; 3)
age, the diversities of youth, displaced (inaudible)
workers entering the workplace; 4) complacency issues; 5)
health, sanitation, and accessibility; 6) interphase with
Musculoskeletal workgroup; 7) data collection and
recommendations on existing data available or request to
facilitate new data; and then when we get work done with
all that process, we will look at the intervention

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145
strategies that we feel are necessary for recommendation
to target employers, labor, and associations to deliver
the product of the workgroup, recommendations to OSHA for
more effective enforcement of existing standards, and
participate in awareness activities that may not be
captured in specific regulatory language.

So this is definitely an ongoing workgroup
meeting which we'll be intermixing with various other
active workgroups, and we will just keep you posted. No
recommendations at this time.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Discussion on the
report, comments?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jane, do you see this
workgroup progressing or do you see it kind of just
circling the wagons?

MS. WILLIAMS: You know, I think now that we
have a priority, we weren't sure what to address first.
And after our discussions, I see it progressing. The only
thing that I see, I definitely see the need and the
interest, the participation is definitely needed in the
communications area.

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146

The only concern, Stew, that I do have is that,
with our other workgroup assignments, is attracting
participants to be in this when we're competing against
other issues. Like, Phil is helping me on this one, and
we've got other things happening. So it's going to be a
time issue, is where we see the problem.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: One of the things that I
want to do before we leave tomorrow is go through the
workgroups. You all have in your packet a copy of the
workgroups, so peruse those and if you see some in there
that -- I mean, we haven't had reports from some of the
workgroups in a while, some are kind of on hold waiting
for OSHA to respond to us, some may be outdated.

So if you would take a look at those prior to
tomorrow, we'll discuss either closing some of those out,
or one of the discussions I want to have, and I've had
with Michael and Marie, is the combination of 170 and Data
Collection.

I see some paramount reasons why to do that, but
I also understand there are some differences in the
workgroups. So, think about all that as you look through
the list, and let's discuss it tomorrow.

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Any other comments on Jane's report?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you, Jane.

MS. WILLIAMS: You're welcome.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Felipe, Multi-Employer.

MULTI-EMPLOYER

By Felipe Devora

MR. DEVORA: The Multi-Employer workgroup. Dan
and I were given the final copy of the policy that is
going to be -- well, I have it, Danny. I haven't given it
to you yet. I think Stew has your copy. But it's the
final version, and it's my understanding that it has
already been through the Solicitor's Office, and it is at
publication now. That should be hitting the streets.

MR. ZETTLER: The document is in the hands of
the people who are to publish it. They have told us that
they will publish it as soon as they can. I am very
hopeful that we will have it up on the net before this

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148
meeting is over, and we can supply a copy to everybody.

MR. DEVORA: Great. That's the reason why in
Chicago, at the next ACCSH meeting, we wanted to have a
form that hopefully, between now and then when you see it
posted, or however you can get your hands on a copy of it,
that you can study it, take a look at it.

I was very pleased to see in this copy that the
format that we outlined in the ACCSH work product, that a
lot of the issues were addressed. As a matter of fact, a
lot of the issues were expanded on and went beyond the
scope of really my expectations, and I thought that was
great.

But one thing in reading through it, it really
is written in a teaching format for compliance officers.
So one of the comments I made to Mr. Jeffress this morning
about culture, I think it's a good step towards that
direction. It gives the compliance officer a step, a
thinking process to go through, before we actually cite on
multi-employer.

So, having said that, that's the reason for wanting to convene a multi-employer session. I think it
won't be a session where we can probably change any of the

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149
verbiage or anything, but it will be a good session, based
on the review beforehand, to discuss some of the issues
and what our expectations are of how this is put into the
firm, and how compliance officers are going to proceed
with this.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: One of the things I would
hope you get in Chicago, is a lot of attendance by people
that are actually going to have to implement this thing
and work with it on a job site so we can get some feel
from them.

MR. DEVORA: Yes. Absolutely.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Michael?

MR. BUCHET: At the end of our MSD workgroup, we
had a discussion with a number of association
representatives about pulling together some forum in
Chicago to which they would commit to bring a number of
field representatives, working contractors. Maybe we need
to talk about that when we talk about the Chicago agenda.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. Yes. Please hold
that until 3:00. Yes.

Further discussion on Multi-Employer?

(No response)

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150

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Thank you.

While we're waiting for Marthe --

MS. WILLIAMS: I can begin 170, if it will help.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I don't want to start it
and then stop. I think there are some discussion items in
170 that will take us a while, and we don't want to hold
Marthe up either, because she is busy.

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: As we speak, she enters.
Welcome, Marthe.

MS. KENT: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Bruce gave you a big build
up. He told us you're going to talk about every single
standard, and you know everything about every one. So,
please proceed.

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151

SPECIAL PRESENTATION

By Marthe Kent

MS. KENT: Okay. Actually, I was going to talk
to you about four standards activities that are relevant
to construction or are coming up fairly soon. I have the
staff that is responsible for helping put those out with

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152

me. Let me tell you what they are.

PROCESS SAFETY MANAGEMENT STANDARD ADVANCED
NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING

MS. KENT: The first one is an ANPR on PSM, on
the process safety management standard. That document, I
think you have been given a copy of it, am I correct?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: It should be by your
places when you came back from lunch.

MS. KENT: Okay. And that's undergone sort of a
metamorphosis because originally -- yes, you've got it.
We'd be very interested in hearing your comments about
that. It does affect construction. That is, the whole
regulation is incorporated into 1926, just as it appears
in general industry, so this would ultimately, if it goes
proposal final, be of interest to you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Do you have a date when
you would like to hear back from the committee?

MS. KENT: I'd like to hear back from you as

soon as I can about the ANPR. Now, I don't know. What
does that mean? You tell me what that means.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: As soon as you can would
be at the end of the February meeting.

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MS. KENT: End of the February meeting. Okay.
All right.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Which is the 10th through
the 18th in Chicago.
MS. KENT: Okay. Then if that's as soon as you
can, that's fine. That will be fine.

This is an ANPR, meaning it is an advanced
notice of proposed rule making. It is asking a lot of
questions about what direction we should go in. It is
not, as we originally envisioned, just making OSHA's PSM
standard agree with the EPA standard.

That was how we originally thought of this

project, and it has grown little legs and gone in a couple
of directions. You'll see in here that it has gone in two
directions that are particularly important.

One, is as a result of the Lodi tragedy several
years ago which killed five workers and involved reactive

chemicals that were actually low-grade reactives, NFPA 1s
and 2s rather than the 3s and 4s that are on the PSM
Hazardous Materials Appendix.

We went back and considered whether there were
other reactives that we should add to the PSM standards.

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Should we include in the list of chemicals that are
covered NFPA 1 and 2 chemicals? You will see that that is
raised, and that's the big thrust here.

We've done a little analysis of accident data
drawn from five or six sources, including EPA source and
several others, and found, to our surprise, that in the
last 10 years or so, lots and lots of accidents have been
caused by those reactives, which we had thought of when we
did the original rule making as not being particularly
hazardous.

So this is asking the public, and we are now
asking you, to tell us whether you think we ought to do
that, and if so, why; if not, why?

I'll be blunt with you, it would change fairly
substantially the nature of the standard. It certainly
would increase by about 100 substances those covered by
the PSM standard. So, that's one thing we're asking for
comment on.

The other one, is whether or not we should -let's
see. I'm trying to think if I have anything more to
tell you on that. I don't think so. Okay.

There has been an issue in the field about

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whether the exemption of flammable liquid storage tanks

that the rule allows should be altered to cover flammable
liquids in atmospheric storage tanks.

The field is telling us that, as a result of a
court case that we lost--the judge said, on the plain
language of it, the standard doesn't cover those
tanks--we have lost our ability to enforce in 40 to 50
percent of all PSM cases, and there have been several bad
accidents involving those tanks.

So this is a question, again, that the AMPR
raises, and I submit to you, are we losing valuable
protection as a result of that court case, and should we
try to do something about it through rule making? Those
are the issues in PSM.

I should tell you that I do have a very nice
draft of the ANPR. That's what you have. I hope you will
agree it's very nice. It is the work of one of the
regulatory teams, and I think they've done a really nice
job and I hope you agree with that. I'm looking forward
to your comments.

After we get and analyze the comments from the
ANPR, we would then go forward with a proposed rule.
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156
don't know what the shape will be. Depending on the
comments, it may or may not have those reactives in it, it
may or may not address the atmospheric storage tank issue.

It almost certainly will make our rule
compatible with EPA's rule. I mean, that, we really have to do. But whether it will have these other aspects, I
don't know. It depends on what the comments are.

Stew, would you like people to ask me questions
now or wait till the end until I've gone through all four,
or what?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: It might be easier if we
take them one at a time, if it's all right with you.

MS. KENT: Okay. So that's the PSM situation.
Anybody got comments about that?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Bill, do you have any?
Steve?

MR. CLOUTIER: It's premature to make comments
until I have a chance to read the document.

MS. KENT: Right. Right.

MR. CLOUTIER: I appreciate your providing this
to us.

MS. KENT: You're very welcome.

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You should know that there has been some
congressional interest in the Lodi tragedy. I think you
are all aware of that, probably. It's taken us longer
than I would have liked to respond to that, but this is an
issue where it looks as though worker protection is not
really what it ought to be. So,I would be interested in
your views on that.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I think, unlike previous
occasions, you've made the alternatives very simple to
read and understand.

MS. KENT: I hope so. I hope so. As I said,
the teams are doing incredibly good work, so it's a
pleasure. This has lovely maps and things in it.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I looked at that, yes.

MS. KENT: Which I found really exciting. Yes.
HEXAVALENT CHROMIUM

MS. KENT: The second thing I want to talk
about, is hexavalent chromium, which is scheduled -- this
is a long way off yet, but I want to talk a little bit
about this rule making.

We're scheduling it for proposal in June of
2001. That's a long way off. Partly it's a long way off

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158
because it is a very big rule making. It would cover
construction, maritime, and general industry.

We think it's going to be a difficult rule
making because there is, at least our preliminary risk
estimates suggest, significant risk at vanishingly low
levels, which will make feasibility even more important
than it usually is. It looks as though we have
significant as well about 100 times lower than our current
level.

OSHA has been trying to regulate hexavalent
chromium since I was here 20-some years ago, so it's about
time we got around to this one. We've been petitioned by
OCAW, which has now changed its name. Who knows what it's
name is now? PACE. PACE. Okay. Thank you.

And by Public Citizen Health Research Group in
1993 to do something on this standard. And we've been
doing that, but we've had several other changes in both
the rule making, the structure of the rule making teams,
and in priorities, and we haven't gotten this one done
yet, but we'd like to.

It's a substance that EPA, IARK, and NIOSH all
consider the chrome-6 version of this to be a human

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159
carcinogen. We think there are lots of workers exposed,
over one million. Okay.

Health effects. We're talking about lung
cancer, skin problems, allergies, and nasal septum
perforation at high exposures, sustained exposures.

We think there are 100,000 workers in
construction exposed to this, mostly through spray
painting and welding. Those are the big uses, I think, in
construction, although I have a note here that says
"Unknown numbers in woodworking, carpentry, and
concrete/masonry." So, we don't have that nailed yet.
The wood handling. It's treated wood that we're talking
about.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I think some of that
pertains to the plywood bonding, too, probably.

MS. KENT: Okay. Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We have a workgroup, a
long-established workgroup, for this. Bill Rhoten and
Owen Smith are the co-chairs.

MS. KENT: Good.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: They've never had an
opportunity to do anything, but now they do.

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MS. KENT: Now you do. And we'd be very happy
to meet with you. We do not have a regulatory text yet,
but we would be very happy to meet with you, with the
working group, to talk about our thoughts about it and how
to go about it, especially for construction.

I'm trying to be very careful, very sure that
what we do for construction in these health standards is
appropriate for construction, which it can be a problem,
as you know. So we would love to meet with you if any of
you would like to meet with us.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: One thing, Marthe, you
might want to consider. Each one of the workgroups that
we have has a Construction Directorate liaison. In this
particular case, one of yours might be better than Doug
Ray, so we could have a health liaison to the workgroup.
So if you could think about that and -

MS. KENT: That would be lovely. Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: -- consider appointing
somebody to work with Bill and Owen's workgroup, that
would be great.

MS. KENT: Okay. We'd love to do that.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Larry?

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MR. EDGINTON: That was sort of along the lines
of the question I had, Mr. Chairman. My recollection was
we had formed the workgroup in response to the
directorate, saying that they were working on a standard
for construction. Sort of a parallel track with general
industry, my recollection was.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: No, I think they've been
waiting for Marthe.

MR. EDGINTON: Then I heard this, and it looks
like we're talking about one standard for everything.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I think they've been
waiting.

MS. KENT: My understanding, at least at the
present time, is that the Health Standards Directorate is
doing the health standards, but with construction
representatives on the regulatory group and with as much
outreach and information as we can get and review as we
can get for the construction portions. So that is, I
think, how we're doing it.

I do not believe the Directorate is -- Berrien,
you would know. They're not developing their own rule.
mean, for heaven's sakes, Berrien, tell me if they are.

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162

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I don't think so.

MR. RHOTEN: I've had some communication with
the Center to Protect Workers' Rights, and they've got a
great interest in this.

MS. KENT: Great.

MR. RHOTEN: They've got some people there that
have a lot of expertise in it, so I expect that they'll be
participating fully.

MS. KENT: That would be wonderful. We'd love
that.

MR. RHOTEN: Owen and I do, too, because they
know more about it than we do.

MS. KENT: Of course. Of course. We attend
their meetings regularly, and I'd love to do that. So,
we'd be happy to do that.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Maybe the two of you could
meet with Marthe and some of her people prior to the
February meeting so you can -

MS. KENT: Sure.

MR. RHOTEN: Yes. We can work that out.

MS. KENT: That's great.

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163

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: And report to us.

MS. KENT: That would be very nice.

DR. SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie.

DR. SWEENEY: Marthe, I understand that folks
from NIOSH are working with you.

MS. KENT: Oh, they're being wonderful. I was
just going to read that.

DR. SWEENEY: Okay. But one of my questions is,
are they doing work in construction?

MS. KENT: Yes.

DR. SWEENEY: My discussion with Margie was that
it was minimal, but there was something there.

MS. KENT: Yes. They are doing some work in
construction. Okay. NIOSH is helping us by doing some
sort of extensive exposure and feasibility -- not really
regulatory feasibility, but what are people doing, what
are the levels, what additional controls could be used.

And Margie Wallace at NIOSH is doing that work
for us. Most of it is centered, as Marie says, in general
industry, but some of it is in construction. But I have a
note from her. It says she "very much needs exposure data

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in residential construction for the four activities listed
above," which would be welding, spray painting, and
carpentry. Anybody know of a scrap of data in any of
those activities for residential construction?

MR. SMITH: There's not much rolling in
residential.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Do you know of any, maybe
through the Painters Association?

MR. SMITH: No. I'll tell you, we use a lot of
respirators with that stuff anytime we're spraying, so
I'll have to find out.

MS. KENT: Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Bob, do you?

MR. MASTERSON: I don't know of any available
data.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Michael?

MR. BUCHET: Would it be possible for the agency
to give us a hint what construction materials we will find

the chemicals in? Is it in the adhesives and plywoods, or
is it primarily treated lumber, or -

MS. KENT: Okay. It's CCA treated lumber, which
is chromium arsenate. What is that? It's lumber that you

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treat to resist bugs, and so on, and so forth.

MR. BUCHET: We can certainly try and ask, but I
think we need to pin down what we're asking for.

MS. KENT: Okay. We can get some more
information to you, what we have. We do have a little
bit. We spent a little time on this.

DR. SWEENEY: And you're interested only in
chrome-6, not chrome-3?

MS. KENT: Only in chrome-6.

DR. SWEENEY: Okay. Although there is some data
that suggests that chrome-3 may actually -

MS. KENT: It turns itself into chrome-6 just
like that.

DR. SWEENEY: Right.

MS. KENT: It does that. Yes. I'm not exactly
sure. I mean, heavens, I don't ever turn down data. If
you have chrom-3 data, by all means, share.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Felipe?

MR. DEVORA: Not having a chemistry background
like Marie, and only being a contractor, heaven help me,
but I don't know what the question is to ask. If I were
to tell a supplier, what information do you have on

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hexavalent chromium, after he looked at me like I was
nuts, I wouldn't know where to go from there. So how can
I -

MS. KENT: How about if we give you a crib
sheet?

MR. DEVORA: That would work. That would work.

MS. KENT: Okay.

MR. DEVORA: But what are we looking at? Is
this a chemical, is it a process, is it a -

MS. KENT: The chemical gets released when you
work on wood that has been treated with it, for example.
So if you saw the wood and it's been treated with it, you
get the chromium off the wood. It is a bad thing to get -

MR. DEVORA: Is this something that shows up on
the MSDS for treated lumber?

MS. KENT: For treated lumber, yes.

MR. DEVORA: That would get me started.

MS. KENT: Right. Okay. Okay. But we can
help. We can do more than we've done so far to help.

And for spray painting, I mean, chromium is an
ingredient in some paints that are used. So when you use
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those paints, it would be an issue.

MR. SMITH: Yellow.

MS. KENT: That's right, yellow. Chrome yellow,
traffic paints. It's not around. Someone told me that
they're still using chrome yellow to paint school buses.
I don't know. Just thinking about that didn't do a lot
for me.

MR. SMITH: Those are being painted in
factories, and then you have -

MS. KENT: Right. Right. The kids don't
actually get -- it's just somehow juxtaposing the two that
doesn't feel good. Okay.

So maybe when I get you some more information on
how it's used in construction activities, you could help
me and NIOSH by suggesting other operations and activities that NIOSH should be paying attention to when it's doing

this extent of exposure study. Okay. That would help.
That would help us a lot. Okay.

We are hoping to have stakeholder meetings, to
which you will all be invited, sometime in the year 2000.
I don't know whether it will be the middle of the year.
can't tell; we haven't scheduled it yet.

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But sometime in that year we will come out to
stakeholders to tell you about our preliminary thinking,
and it will be very preliminary, but we hope to have
interactions with stakeholders in 2000 on this one.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Felipe?

MR. DEVORA: Do we have any exposure limit
information on this?

MS. KENT: No. We don't have an exposure limit
yet because we haven't done the feasibility analyses and
we don't have the risk data yet. But, as I said, the
preliminary risks look as though the limit we have is very
much too high in terms of protecting workers from cancer.

MR. DEVORA: So are we reacting to future
research, or are we -- I guess my question is, are we
getting into the regulation process based on some
assumptions, is that what we're doing?

MS. KENT: We think there's no question that the
limit will drop. I mean, I can tell you right now, the
limit is going to drop. I don't know how far it's going
to drop and I won't know that until we have the exposure
data that lets us do the feasibility analysis that will
decide where that limit should be set.

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MR. DEVORA: I guess my fear is that we're
reacting as an industry to something that we think is bad,
or we are reasonably sure is bad, but we don't know how
we're going to react to it.

MR. PERRY: I think maybe I can address that.
I'm Bill Perry out of Health Standards. The evidence for
hexavalent chromium being a human carcinogen is very
strong. The International Agency for Research on Cancer
has classified it as a Group I carcinogen.

And there are only a few dozen substances that
have that classification. There are epidemiology, there
are human studies, in a wide variety of industries that
show excesses of lung cancers, lung cancer mortality among
workers that are exposed to hexavalent chromium.

I couldn't say offhand that those are
construction trades. Mostly those are electroplating and
other types of industrial processes, chromate production,
et cetera. But the evidence is very, very strong.

In addition, we have been working with a group
in NIOSH/Morgantown for the last 18 months, supporting
some of their research into the mechanisms by which
hexavalent chromium is causing these effects in people,

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and some of their findings are going to have a direct
impact on how we evaluate the risks to come up with an
exposure limit. That work is going to continue into at
least the next year.

MR. DEVORA: My follow-up is just that, before
we rush to regulation with this issue, let's get a little
education, because obviously to say that something is a
carcinogen, that's fine, we understand what that means.
But how it affects us as an industry, there needs to be a
little more process in there.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, you mentioned the
magic word: epidemiologist. And our resident
epidemiologist, Dr. Sweeney, would like to speak.

DR. SWEENEY: Felipe, I can sit down with you
and talk about it.

MR. DEVORA: I'm sure we will.

DR. SWEENEY: You know what might be really
good? If somebody sat down with the whole group and gave
them a synopsis of those studies. From my understanding,
the data from chrome-6 is that it's a very strong
carcinogen, but we haven't seen anything in construction
because we haven't looked. So chrome factories, which

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171

don't exist anymore in the United States, and in

electroplating. So we really need to do some work in
construction.

My question to Bill is, do we have the data from
Morgantown out yet, and is it published?

MR. PERRY: No, it's not. At least, the
Morgantown group, Dr. Seeds, Ed Svinscaster, Enovis Group
out there, they have published a tremendous amount already
on chromium. The work that they've been doing for us is
not in published form yet, and we are not in receipt of
any detailed data that they've generated.

We've gotten some information from them, but
it's still sort of at an informal stage. They have to do
some more experimentation over the next few months before
we can nail down certain aspects of what they're finding.

DR. SWEENEY: Okay. I'd like to have that.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie, could you talk to
them, NIOSH to NIOSH?

DR. SWEENEY: I have it down here. I will.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay.

MR. PERRY: Again, Marie, I just want to be sure
that we're comparing apples to apples here and that we're

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172
not going to look at a scenario of how we did things in
the past and back when use of this product was very, very
prevalent.

But nowadays, perhaps, we don't use as much or
use it in that form any more, but we're not using that
data from the past to compare it to the situation today.

MS. KENT: That's one reason why NIOSH is
helping us with current exposure data, and we're coming to
you. In addition to that, we have other contractors who
are looking. So, we're trying to get current data.

MR. SMITH: Marie, as long as you guys are
looking at it, and I would suspect that with respect to
the spray paint, that it's probably on buses, because
that's about the only place you see that yellow any more.

I think that that stuff is all done in
factories. They have water curtains, and respirators, and
an air recovery system that cleans the air before they can
emit it, and all those kinds of things. So I would
suspect that, when you do it, that you would also consider
the way that they supply. You don't see it much in paint
any more, architecturally.

DR. SWEENEY: Right. I have been in an

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automotive or motor vehicle manufacturing process plant
about 10 years ago, and they were using water curtains and
electrostatic precipitation, where actually people didn't
get exposed. But that's in a manufacturing setting.
don't know about construction, and we really need to do
some more work on that. If there's anything we can do to
help, Marthe, let's try.

But if you could get us a sheet, a kind of a
crib sheet that people can look for scenarios in their own
industries, in their own sites -

MS. KENT: Right. That would be great. I'd
really welcome working with you on that.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. If you can get the
crib sheet to Berrien, Bruce, or Jim, and they can get it
out to the committee.

MS. KENT: Right. Okay. That's great.

HEARING CONSERVATION IN CONSTRUCTION

MS. KENT: Another thing that we're going to be
doing, is putting out an advanced notice of proposed rule
making on noise in construction. Have you heard that
rumor? Okay. I thought the answer was going to be yes.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: You missed this morning's

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session with Charles.

MS. KENT: Oh. You didn't give him a hard time,
did you?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Sort of.

MS. KENT: You wouldn't do that to Charles. So
he talked about this?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: And we talked to him about
that.

MS. KENT: Aha. You are going to share, aren't
you? Because sometimes it's hard for us to coordinate.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I think it would be better
if he shared.

MS. KENT: Oh. Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: That way we'd know if he
got it.

MS. KENT: Okay.

Well, do I continue, or what?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Basically, the committee
told him that we feel that sanitation is a more important
issue to be addressed than noise in construction.

Now, NIOSH certainly disagrees with that, and
I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why. Because when you

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look at the facts, we have more and more people suffering
hearing loss in construction every day and we do not have
a lot of people suffering whatever else they would get
from sanitation problems.

We're not getting a lot of people reporting to
construction first aid facilities or nurses on our job
sites complaining of that, we're getting more complaints
of hearing loss.

But, that aside, I think Jane brought up a very
passionate point this morning, and if you wouldn't mind
repeating that for Marthe, I think she'd like to hear it
also. The comments you made about workers in America and
the sanitation problems and stuff. I'll defer to you.

MS. WILLIAMS: The primary question that we
continually do, is in relation to the overall department
strategic plan that called for changes they were trying to
-- we find it very difficult for us to make some of these
additional level changes that you're requiring by standard
making when we cannot even facilitate the workers in our
industry with sanitation needs that they have to have.

It's becoming more and more complicated with
women entering the market. We already know that there are

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increases. And we don't have substantive data, but we
know that there are definitely occurrences of bladder
infections.

MS. KENT: Sure.

MS. WILLIAMS: We don't want to be in a position
of waiting for some epidemic to run through the
construction, dwindling forces that we have, and then have
to be reactive to try to come up with something.

What they need now is accessible toilet
facilities, hand washing facilities, and allow our work
force to function in the guidelines of normal industries.
Every other industry has it.

I invited Charles, and I'll extend the
invitation to you to come to Arizona in 116 degree weather
in August, and I'd love to show you some of these
facilities.

MS. KENT: I can't imagine.

MS. WILLIAMS: We don't have enough. They're
not accessible. It is a number one problem and concern
for our work force, and we definitely have to have that
address.

We feel very strongly, this committee, and I

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think every worker will tell you, it means a lot more for
them to be able to go relieve themselves than to worry
about hexavalent chromium, or silica, or anything that's
affecting them. Certain workers, certainly, and we all
agree that, but it's certainly not affecting each and
every worker on a construction work site.

MS. KENT: I'm at a disadvantage here, so you're
going to help me, I know. How does it get linked to the
noise?

(Laughter)
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, we're very happy you
asked that.

MR. SMITH: You make noise when you can't find a
clean facility.

MS. KENT: I'm not trying to be funny.

(Laughter)

MS. KENT: What I mean is -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: It kind of got linked to
noise, Marthe, because I made a comment, when Charles was
listening to, I think, every single member comment about
the seriousness of sanitation.

My comment was, you're hearing a lot of

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beautiful noise on the sanitation problem. So I think
maybe there was a conclusion drawn there that I was
against noise, which is not true at all. I think Charles
may ask the committee--may ask the committee--if we want
sanitation moved up as an agenda item, what we propose he
take off in order to allow us to move that one up.

Now, the committee hasn't discussed that. The
hearing was just something I threw out. It's not a
committee, it's a personal thing.

MR. RHOTEN: I think the way the committee
feels, you could take anything off as long as you've got
that on the top of the list.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, that's an excellent
point. I think, when the question does come back to us,
we will, as a group, make a decision on it.

MS. KENT: Why don't you point to a maritime- or
general industry-exclusive standard?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, I'd love to pick the
maritime one on there, but a very good friend of mine is
the safety director for NESCO in San Diego and he would
violently disagree with me that I should remove that from
the list.

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MS. KENT: Whatever priorities you work out with
Charles, we will absolutely -- I also think that
sanitation is very important and am very happy to work
with the Directorate of Construction and put it anyplace
on the agenda that you all agree on. So, I hear that.
But I do want to emphasize that noise is an awful problem
in construction, and construction workers have been
waiting for 20 years for -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: How long?

(Laughter)

MS. KENT: -- protection. I'm uncomfortable
trying to weigh the two.

DR. SWEENEY: You're not speaking loud enough,
Marthe.

(Laughter)

MS. KENT: Anyway, if Charles does work with
you, Berrien and I will work together to put it wherever
it needs to be.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Great.

DR. SWEENEY: Maybe I'm the lone person on the
committee to say that noise should not be removed.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: No. I said NIOSH would

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disagree.

DR. SWEENEY: And NIOSH will disagree.
Sanitation notwithstanding, it is an important issue. But
when you look at the data relative to hearing loss and
construction workers, again, you would be appalled.
Because when you look at the data, even construction
workers who have been in the industry for five years, they
have substantial hearing loss compared to non-construction
workers.

When you get to age 50, more than 50 percent of
them have hearing loss. Somewhere between 25 and 30
percent have significant hearing loss, which means that
you drive your spouse nuts when you watch TV. I mean, we
can go on, and on, and on, but there's a lot of data out
there that shows that construction workers need to be
protected from it.

In fact, last week I was on the stadium
construction site in Cincinnati, and there were painters
who were no more than 10 feet away from a huge generator
that was putting out, I swear, 95 to 100 DB, and these
guys had no hearing protection. And they were on that
site at least for eight hours, if not more.

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So I want to voice my opinion as somebody who
does health and safety in construction, but also voice
NIOSH's opinion, that we think this is an important
standard to go forward with.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Felipe?

MR. DEVORA: Again, I just want to point out,
our rush to these issues and priorities, certainly, are
very important. But I don't want us to lose track, and
I'll keep reiterating this, and certainly there are
specific examples and you can go to any construction site
and see them, like the one you just saw, but certainly
when we're measuring and using our data as a criteria of
how we did things in the past, it's not a true picture of
how the industry as a whole is moving towards doing things
differently.

I think there's probably more ear protection or
noise protection safeguards being used today than there
were when the 50-year-old folks that you're using their
data were doing that kind of work when they were 25 years
old.

I guess what I'm saying is, we still need to
understand that the processes are changing, the

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technologies are changing. The motors are quieter now.

DR. SWEENEY: Not this one.

MR. DEVORA: Well, maybe, maybe not. But I just
don't want us to be reactive by using statistics of how
things were done 25 or 30 years ago. I think you can
point out the differences from five years ago of how we're
doing things differently.

So I don't want this group to jump or react to
hexavalent chromium and then change our priorities with,
like, sanitation, and sanitation is one of those things -there's
really no debate on sanitation, as far as I'm
concerned.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Larry?

MR. EDGINTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Clearly, we're not being asked at this moment
what our priorities are. I think it's fair to say that,
at some point in time, we might. This morning you heard
me speak very passionately about sanitation, but I must
tell you, I'm equally prepared to speak with such fervor
about hearing loss.

I can tell you that, yes, much of today's
equipment is quieter than it's ever been that's operated

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by my members, but I can also tell you that we've got
members who are 25 to 30 years old who are suffering
hearing loss now, even when operating some of the newer
equipment. PPE is available. We try to educate our
people as best we can.

We have yet, I think, to develop some effective
means for intervention, really causing people to use it.
We're continuing to struggle with it. But I think we
should not diminish the seriousness of the problem, and it
makes good sense for everybody to figure out how we get a
handle on this. So let's not beat a quick retreat on it,
I guess, is my point. Let's figure out how we balance
these interests, because I think it is fair.

We can't just say to the agency, do it all and
do it all now. But at the same time, these are worthy
things and I think they are important. These are some of
the issues that are important to construction workers.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jane?

MS. WILLIAMS: Marthe, the final comment that I
would make, to show you the seriousness that I believe of
the issues, is we know we're losing 250,000 workers a year
out of the construction industry, minimal.

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We know that the sanitation conditions are a
primary focus in talking with new entrants coming in. Why
do I want to subject myself to this? I agree, hearing
loss is a critical issue.

If I heard Mr. Jeffress this morning correctly,
he stated that, "Maybe I should be looking at additional
resources to the Directorate so that we could accomplish
some other priorities." Something to that effect, is
what I believe was on the record, and I'll get that
transcript.

However, my point is, if we need additional
resources to hit those type of issues, we need to do that
and not replace one issue with the other. But certainly
we have to look at getting the workers in or we're not
going to have to worry about your exposures, we're not
going to have the industry maintained to do what we need
to do.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marthe?

MS. KENT: Okay. I just want to make something
clear about the competition between the two, and bear with
me here for a second. The sanitation proposal is coming
out of the Directorate of Construction. The ANPR for

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noise in construction is coming out of Health Standards.
It is close.

This is an ANPR, so this is essentially a
request for information document. It does not have an
economic analysis, it doesn't have tech fees, it doesn't
have any regulatory text.

When you get to do an ANPR, it's a piece of cake
just because you don't have to go through all of those
things. If people could hear me say it's a piece of cake
they'd probably kill me, but compared to what we usually
have to live through.

The ANPR simply says, here's the data we have.
By the way, the data we have shows that hearing protector
use in U.S. construction industry is about 15 percent of
workers who are way exposed above our current PEL.

So the combination of high noise levels and very
low levels of use of hearing protectors is scary in
construction. I'm speaking as a health professional now.
It's scary.

The ANPR is not competing. I'm sorry I wasn't
here to hear what Charles said, even though it's like
this. It is not competing for resources. Those are

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totally different resources. Those are Berrien's
resources developing the proposal for sanitation, those
are my health standards people who have already largely
developed the safety standards, the ANPR for noise. There
are no economics with it, there are no tech fees.

Eventually, sanitation will come to me for tech
and EC fees. That's a different story. But it isn't
competing for resources. So you can have an ANPR for
noise in construction and not jeopardize sanitation,
because it's totally different groups that are doing it.
So if that wasn't made clear this morning, let me make it
clear now.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Great. Thank you.

Any other discussion on noise?

MS. KENT: You want any more information on
noise? I actually have a couple of pages here, if you're
interested.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: No. Go ahead, please.

MS. KENT: Okay. Five million construction
workers. We think about 15 percent of them, almost 1
million, are exposed to noise levels above 85 DBA.
Exposure varies by the type of construction work and the

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trade. Again, unlike general industry, it's not usually
exposure to a steady level all day, it's peaks and
valleys.

An operator of a light-duty dozer is exposed to
between 93 and 101 DBA of noise. That is a very high
level, indeed. A tower crane operator, on the other hand,
who has got a cab that's closed, is much lower.

Construction workers experience more hearing
loss than the rest of the population. Some studies have
found permanent threshold shifts in more than one-quarter
of workers in certain occupations. I already mentioned
that the use of hearing protectors was really poor.

The issues that we're raising in the ANPR. How
closely should a construction noise standard parallel the
general industry noise standard? We think there are
significant differences, but that's an issue, what should
those differences be? We'll be coming back to you with an
issue like that, obviously.

Then we have all the usual special problems in
construction: how do you craft a standard that will
accommodate those? The role of engineering and
administrative controls versus hearing protection in

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construction is a bigger issue even than it was. It was a
pretty big issue in general industry, it's an even bigger
one in construction.

A huge issue that is very important in
construction is, how can you protect the hearing of
workers while at the same time allowing them to hear
warning signals and instructions? There's a big safety
component here which we did not deal with in the general
industry standard.

There is an issue, in general, about whether
OSHA should be considering lowering the existing PEL for
noise. Most of us think that 90 is too high. Those
issues will get raised in the ANPR.

Please, there's a long time between the ANPR and
a proposal, but those issues are going to be raised, as
will issues about the exchange rate, whether you need to
correct audiograms for aging, all sorts of important
issues, like how best to measure noise, are going to be
raised in the ANPR simply because it's the first time
we've been out there in 20 years on noise, and those are
the issues that are hot now.

So that is the schedule. We are hoping to hold

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stakeholder meetings after we've done the ANPR and gotten
responses in and shared the information we've gotten with
people in the construction industry. I don't want to
commit to a month for that, but we're looking at 2000 for
that as well.

After that, we have a long road. We have to
develop a proposal, we'll have to have a SBREFA panel,
probably, put out the NPRM, live through OMB review, a
variety of things like that, and publish.

MS. WILLIAMS: Do you have a date when the ANPR
is coming out?

MS. KENT: The ANPR is actually fairly close.
think you should look for it in the next month, two
months. No economic data, just questions.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie?

DR. SWEENEY: This may seem a little silly, but
can you give us a little more time than you did for
ergonomics in terms of response? Because there's a lot of
data in here and -- just don't make it February in terms
of wanting responses back.

MS. KENT: Okay. No, that's fine. That isn't
going to be a problem.

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DR. SWEENEY: Okay.

MS. KENT: I mean, we'll have a fairly decent
comment period on that ANPR.

DR. SWEENEY: Because I think ergonomics seems

to be a really short comment period for the amount of data
we need.

MS. KENT: More than twice the statutory limit,
but never mind.

DR. SWEENEY: Well, it's over before -

MS. KENT: I know. I know. Okay.
SILICA

MS. KENT: The last thing I wanted to talk to
you about is silica, which is on track and moving quickly.
Can you join us, Loretta? Is Dr. Silica in this agency?
I'm sure you know that silica is one of the top priority
items in the agency's strategic plan. It's a big hitter
under Goal 1.

We are committed to reducing exposures here by
15 percent over the next couple of years, so we are
pulling out all the stops and going after silica through
enforcement, through training, through consultation, and
through rule making.

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The rule making team has done a great deal of
work on this standard. It will apply to construction,
maritime, and general industry. Obviously, in
construction, abrasive blasting is a big issue, but there
are lots of other tuck pointing. I mean, there's a whole
bunch of other operations where exposure is a problem.

Again, NIOSH is helping us with an extent of
exposure study and an engineering control study and is
doing site visits in construction workplaces to get
exposure data.

We have been active. We've been out there doing
stakeholder meetings and the construction industry has
been very active in those stakeholder meetings. We've
done quite a few. We're going to do another one in March,
and I'm very much looking forward to your participation in
those meetings.

So we're going to share with you our stakeholder
meetings. Before the March meeting we'll share with you
the materials that we're sending out there so you can be
better prepared to participate.

We think you'll have lots of information about
where we're going with the standard. We do not think

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you'll have the PEL at that time. The reason is because
we are still working on the risk assessment, so I don't
know exactly where the PEL will be.

Again, this is an area--and I know I'm going to
hear from you, Felipe--where preliminary risk estimates
show that the PEL is way out of line with the risk
estimates.

Again, feasibility concerns are going to be
major, for your industry and for other industries as well.
So we need good feasibility data so that we can put the
risk data and the feasibility data together and set a PEL
that people can meet with some energy.

We think, undoubtedly, this will have a SBREFA
panel, so we're going to panel this this year. When the
panel happens this year, that means the draft that we're
working from will be out and be made public. The SBREFA
panel drafts are not the proposed rule, they are a draft
that is put out there for comment from small businesses,
and construction will play a big part in that and you'll
have a crack at it then.

Then we retreat and we adjust the proposal to
respond to those comments. Then we go to OMB. So we're

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talking about a proposal the end of, or sometime late, in
2000, probably.

It's a full 6B5 standard, so this is your
regular OSHA health standard that you all know and love.
Exposure monitoring, medical surveillance, the whole ball
of wax. Industrial hygiene facilities.

However, we are looking at different provisions
for construction that might be, for example, operation-
based that might limit the kind of exposure monitoring you
have to do because there's a problem in construction of
getting samples back and having them do meaningful -because
the operation is over by the time you're done.

So we have a couple of other standards, like
lead in construction and asbestos that have taken a
different approach, a work practices approach, and that
looks promising to us.

We do think it will have a big impact in
construction. That is, all kinds of dusty jobs are
associated with high levels of exposure to silica. We
think that wet methods or other things are likely to be
part of this standard. That's just very preliminary, you
understand. You may come in and tell us that that's not a

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good approach.

So that is essentially the approach that we're
thinking of taking in construction. We'll talk more about
it at the stakeholder meetings in March. Dry-cutting of
masonry, block, brick, and stone is an issue, dry-cutting
of concrete is an issue, grinding, drilling, polishing,
chipping, and other operations in your industry are a
problem.

We know those are problems and we're trying to
get data that are specific to the task and the job and
figure out a way to protect workers while being
reasonable, and so on.

Let's see. We're thinking of putting on the
medical surveillance requirements something that says, if
you're above the PEL or an action level, then you'd have
to provide things like X-rays and other kinds of medical
provisions. So, keep your eye on the web around March.
Actually, we'll get it out to you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Then we'll have eye strain
to deal with.

Steve?

MR. CLOUTIER: Who do you think is going to pay

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for all this?

MS. KENT: Who do we think? Well, we hoped that
you were.

MR. RHOTEN: This meeting is 12 years away, so
you don't have to worry now.

MS. KENT: I do want to suggest to you that the
rule making process, in my corner, has speeded up a lot.
You do understand that we got that proposal out for
ergonomics in very short order and that we're going final
next year.

So just so that you all understand, rule making
is on a whole other track now. So I wouldn't say it's
going to be a couple of years. Silica? No.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jane?

MS. WILLIAMS: Marthe, we sat through several
sessions on the aftermath of the respiratory standard.
You have said the stakeholder meetings will be in March.

MS. KENT: Right.

MS. WILLIAMS: Will they be in D.C.?

MS. KENT: Yes. Now, we've had stakeholder
meetings in Chicago, San Francisco, and Washington
already. So we've had how many? Sixteen stakeholder

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meetings. We're going to have four more in March in
Washington.

Then there will be a SBREFA panel. The SBREFA
panel will actually see draft reg text, see the economic
information, figure out who's going to pay for it, figure
out how much it's going to cost, and you'll get a chance
to come in and tell me that my cost estimates are nuts.
Okay?

MS. WILLIAMS: What I was getting to was, when
we had the meeting with the respiratory people after the
fact, there were so many wrong assumptions that had been
made, and we tried to impress upon them the impact that it
was having on us, tremendous impact. This is another one
that will be a very tremendous impact.

I don't know how to propose this, but if there
is any way you can be communicating with this committee,
because we have got to work with you on its development
beforehand or this will be a major impact to the industry.

MS. KENT: Okay. Let me say, there isn't
anything I'd like better on any of these rules that impact
construction, to work with you, to bring my economists.

I mean, whatever I can do to get information to

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understand how it works for your industry, all you have to
do is ask. I mean, we're here, we're really eager to do
it, I will help any way I possibly can. I mean, this
matters a lot to me.

The stakeholder process is supposed to be doing
that. Somehow, if it's not reaching the right people or
something, if anybody wants to come to those stakeholder
meetings, all I need is a name and you're on the list, and
you're probably on the list for the rest of your natural
life. You will probably hear about every stakeholder
meeting we have on any topic. But we're very careful
about that.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We have a Silica workgroup
also that's been around forever. Marie and Larry co-chair
the Silica workgroup.

MS. KENT: Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I'm sure they'd be more
than happy to work with you.

On the respirator issue, Jane, I think
respirator is a minor part of the cost. The major part of
the cost is the physicals.

MS. WILLIAMS: That's what I was getting to,

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Stew.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: The X-rays, the bloods,
the time of the guy going to get the physical.

MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Or the lady going to get
the physical. If they find a problem in the sampling
data, then you have to send your sampling to a certified
lab to make sure we get the right reads, and that's not
cheap. You have the problem of employees spiking the
sample if they're not a happy camper.

Then the job is done by the time we get all the
stuff back, and the employees, most of them now, are
travelers because everybody is off the books and everybody
is working, so you've got to go find them.

And their address is P.O. Box 6, Trailer City,
in a lot of cases for the travelers that come to the job
sites, because that's how they move around, is they bring
a trailer and they live there, they work there, and they
move on to the next job. It's very difficult for a single
employer to go find the guy because you have no idea where
he is.
MS. KENT: Right.

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So there's a lot of those
things that add up the cost that you may not have
considered, other than just purchasing a respirator or
sending them to your local doctor for a 15 and 95
physical.

MS. KENT: Well, I'm not going to talk about the
respirator standard because that was done under a
different system. I mean, we proposed that, I guess, in
'88 or something. But I'm real willing to work with you,
and cost is absolutely fair game.

I mean, I will tell you what the assumptions are
we're using, I'll show you, we say it's going to take two
people this many hours to do X, and you tell me, no, that
assumption isn't right, it would take six hours, or
whatever. I mean, I would love to do that.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Steve?

MR. CLOUTIER: Part of the problem with the
assumption basis is the agency assumes that every
contractor has these bodies to do all this. Everybody
that I know is doing one, two, three, and four jobs now,
but we don't have these extra bodies. So that's a wrong
assumption from the agency.

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The second thing, is your stakeholder meetings
need to get down to Atlanta, they need to go to Florida,
they need to go to Texas. We always go to Chicago,
Boston, and San Francisco. Let's get down to where the
rest of the working folks are in the world, go to the -

MS. KENT: Okay. What's the best city for
construction? Tell me, seriously.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Atlanta, right now, is
booming.

MR. CLOUTIER: Atlanta is booming and has been
for 10 or 15 years now.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Las Vegas is another one.

MR. CLOUTIER: Las Vegas is wide open.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Phoenix is another one.

MS. KENT: Okay. Who's taking notes for me?
Phoenix, Las Vegas, Atlanta.

MR. CLOUTIER: Atlanta.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Houston.

MS. KENT: Houston. Okay.

MR. CLOUTIER: Orlando. Orlando's wide open,
has been for a number of years.

MS. KENT: Now, you can't have five. You just

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can't. You can't have five.

(Laughter)

MS. KENT: But I'm glad to know that. Let me
tell you, that's the kind of information -- I didn't know
that. So we've been scheduling these stakeholder meetings
sort of, well, let's hit three places in the country. If
that's not good for construction, we need to know that,
and that's great.

MR. CLOUTIER: And can you send your economists
out to a construction site other than what's here in the
District? Can we get outside the Beltway to a real
construction site?

MS. KENT: Yes, I can. I can send my
contractors, too, but I don't do it very often. I need an
invitation. He needs to know he's coming back whole.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Just ask, we'll be happy
to -

(Laughter)

MS. KENT: But, seriously, the economists work
for me as well. I'm very happy to have the assumptions,
and so on, to work with you on those because it matters to
me that they be right, and it certainly matters to OMB

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that they be right.

Now, will it look exactly the way you want it?
No. But will it be much better? Yes.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Felipe?

MR. DEVORA: I want to follow up on something
that Larry was talking about a while ago. As a contractor
viewpoint, you know, I look at these studies, and I look
at the data, and I look at these regulations and what I
call real life that is going to actually touch the worker
that they will know about, and I've certainly put
sanitation and hearing into those. Those are very real,
tangible things that they can touch and feel and we can
explain for.

The technical standards, regulations, or
studies, like for hexavalent chromium and silica that is
only in certain processes in construction, those are
harder for a company-type situation like Steve was talking
about, and myself, for me to get the resources to do these
explanations and explain PELs to the people out in the
field and implement these kinds of things.

But, by and large, we're not as large as Steve's
company, but, by and large, it's companies like ourselves

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that will take the time to even recognize that there's a
difference in these kind of standards.

MS. KENT: Right.

MR. DEVORA: But the hole in the net gets bigger
the smaller the contractor gets.

MS. KENT: I agree.

MR. DEVORA: Unfortunately, I think we miss so
much of that data because I can tell you, there are
painting contractors right now. There are good painting
contractors that have been around for a long, long time,
but they're not the biggest in town and they probably will
never have a conception of what hexavalent chromium
actually is unless there's more outreach and more
education.

I've always been a proponent of education
instead of regulation, so these issues, I kind of put them
in two different categories, the technical data collection
and the real-life, I-can-go-out-and-touch-the-worker type.
I put sanitation and hearing in those two, and silica and
hexavalent chromium in the other.

MS. KENT: Okay. I hear you.

MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, may I?

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Owen, please.

MR. SMITH: Yes. I'm a painter, and certainly
this silica thing would affect us. But I'm wondering, did
you guys ever consider that, at least with abrasive
blasting, that there are materials other than sand being
used and you don't -

MS. KENT: Yes.

MR. SMITH: It didn't seem to make much with
those respirators and the costs that they came up with
with that. I'm with this guy with the sanitation thing,
you know. This chromium, as a painter, I can't remember
when I last saw some. But everybody has a sanitation
problem every day.

MS. KENT: Okay. Again, they're not competing
for the same agency -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: But we want you to listen
anyway.

(Laughter)

MS. KENT: I want to listen. Okay.

I
understand. I know it's important. I agree with you that
it's important. I bet you that Charles has Berrien and me
in there in no time at all. That's what I would predict.

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We'll work together the way we always do to move it out.
But I hear what you're saying about these others, where
you don't see the direct effects quite as much. They're
harder to see.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jane?

MS. WILLIAMS: One of my concerns, too, with
silica, is take a demolition process. The small employer,
to reach, it's going to be extremely difficult to bring
them into compliance with this.

If you go get a one- or two-person company to
come in and do some of these demo processes and you tell
them they have to have this, they get on the job site and
they don't have a clue, there's a general contractor
sitting there holding the bag, and what do you do? So, an
awful lot of outreach is going to have to be involved in
this type of process.

MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Owen.

MR. SMITH: You know, a small guy would probably

comply if you say you've got to have this kind of mask or
this kind of respirator because you've got this exposure.

What you're not going to get, is this monitoring.

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It ain't gonna happen, because why should he,
that's going to be on a job for a few days, call some
engineer to come out or have somebody else monitor and
send something someplace? He's just not going to do it.
He's going to do his job and go on or he's not going to do
the job, period.

I'm telling you, the costs that you guys crank
into these things, like that respirator thing you talk
about, and it's only for a year -- every year you've got
to go through the same thing again. It's a killer.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I think, Marthe, you see
there's some passion on this from -

MS. KENT: I'm picking that up.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: -- the workgroup. We
would certainly, I think, want to take you up on working
with you and your team and providing you with some real-
world input. The problem with having stakeholder meetings
in Washington, is you get a certain viewpoint that may or
may not be related to actual people working.

(Laughter)

MS. KENT: Okay. If you could only have one
-- I'll commit here to one stakeholder meeting in one of

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those cities. I've already committed, and have limited
resources, to do more than another one. Where should it
be?

MR. CLOUTIER: Atlanta.

MS. KENT: Atlanta.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: If you get one choice, I'd
vote for Atlanta.

MS. KENT: Okay. We'll have stakeholder
meetings on silica in Atlanta.

DR. SWEENEY: Mr. Chairman, I have one other
suggestion.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie.

DR. SWEENEY: Marthe, we appreciate your
flexibility on this. If, in the future, you have an issue
-- and you have been with the hexavalent chromium and with
some of the other issues, and noise, if you're going to
have stakeholder meetings that affect construction, maybe
we could know about that ahead of time and then we could
help you decide where. If you need to have them all over
the country, maybe we can help you with that ahead of
time.

MS. KENT: Okay. That's great. That's a

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commitment and I'm really grateful for the help because we
don't know. So we'll definitely do that. I'll give you
my schedule of stakeholder meetings and you can help me
pick the place.

DR. SWEENEY: Put it on our web site.

MS. KENT: Okay. Yes. But I'm real serious
about workgroups and having an economist there, and you

can give them a rough time, and all those things.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Great. Any other comments
for Marthe or her group?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Thank you very much.

MS. KENT: You're very welcome. Good seeing
you.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We'll take a break and
return.

(Whereupon, at 2:00 p.m., the meeting was
recessed.)

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AFTER RECESS

(2:15 p.m.)
ACCSH PLANNING SESSION FOR THE CHICAGO MEETING
IN FEBRUARY 2000

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. We're now at the
part of the agenda where we're going to develop the ACCSH
meeting agenda for February in Chicago.

Michael?

MR. BUCHET: Are you doing 170 tomorrow?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes.

MR. BUCHET: I talked to Tom Broderick and his
office is going to fax us information on the schedule of
their show and registration, so we should have that within
the next 10, 15 minutes.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. The information I
have, and Michael, correct me if I've got the wrong
information, Monday the 14th we're going to have workgroup
all day. As I indicated earlier, I was looking at two-
hour time slots for MSDs, Multi-Employer, Fall Protection,
and Cranes.

But now we've got some additional information
today, that PSM is one I don't think is worth having a

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session on, but hearing or sanitation might be. I think
we could get a lot of input that backs up our sentiments
on sanitation, but maybe we don't need it either.

Go ahead, Bill.

MR. RHOTEN: I think we should just keep pushing
this, and pushing this, and pushing it until we get it
done. I mean, it's just a matter of decency. If people
in this building -- if they shut all this plumbing down
and put those outhouses out in the front here for a couple
of weeks, and they had to go down there and use them,
you'd find out that they'd shut this building down.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: It would get changed real
quick.

MR. RHOTEN: I mean, it's just a matter of
decency to keep pushing this until we get it done.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jane?

MS. WILLIAMS: Stew, I totally agree. I will be
there and I would love to do this. I'll talk to Mr.
Cooper.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Michael?

MR. BUCHET: I'm just curious, after what we
heard this afternoon, if we can get a commitment that

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sanitation will be moved along by the Directorate, and
whether we need to do anything in Chicago or not. If not,
then we certainly have to push as hard as we can.

MR. RHOTEN: Well, even if he's going to push
it, let's do this, is my point. I mean, I don't think we
should be meek about this at all. I think we gave them
the message that it's a top priority for everybody here.
I think we should continue on. We shouldn't be
embarrassed to take a position on something this serious.
I mean, not that we're embarrassed, but we can go ahead
and push it.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Larry?

MR. EDGINTON: With respect to the Cranes
workgroup, we had decided at our meeting yesterday that
many of the participants said that the Chicago date was
not a particularly good date for them. We have selected a
couple of alternate dates for members to choose from. A
notice will be going out in the next, probably, week.
Each of those dates is actually before the Chicago date
that we're talking about.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So you're offering to give
up your time slot to some -

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MR. EDGINTON: Yes. We anticipate having a
meeting here in Washington, perhaps even an all-day
meeting, was the sense of the workgroup yesterday, and
we'll be surveying members in the next couple of weeks.

MR. BUCHET: Mr. Chairman, I will -- to Brother Edginton. One of the things that Tom Broderick and I had
talked about is whether or not you guys were going to
discuss cranes out there, and I didn't have a chance to
chat with you and tell you that he thought there might be
some interest in having some of those contractors come in
and talk to the workgroup, maybe to find out what the
workgroup is doing.

MR. EDGINTON: That would be fine. Whether it
takes two hours, I don't know, but we certainly could
accommodate that. I'm just saying, as we said this
morning, this group is sort of anxious to get moving and
they've said we want to meet sooner and we want to meet
longer, so we're going to try to accommodate that.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Marie, what have you and

Michael decided? Are we going to do MSDs as a panel or
are we going to do it as a workgroup?
MR. BUCHET: We have the option of doing both.

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We have a commitment from the Construction Safety Council
for at least two time slots during their program, one of
which was going to be -- one of the presentations was
going to be what ACCSH is and what it was doing, and
another one that we offered them, and they have accepted,
though I'm sure we can change it, was going to be MSD.

The other part of that, is we want to do an MSD
workgroup because we want to keep the process alive and
keep the ACCSH process alive, and doing something inside
the conference is not open to the public.

We have tentatively gotten agreement from Dr.
Steve Brennan to come out and do a presentation on his
Stretch and Flex programs, and we're looking for somebody
else to do a short presentation, either giving some
evaluation of Stretch and Flex programs or bringing more
to bear on that sort of issue.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. So MSDs. Are we
all in agreement that we're going to do a workgroup and a
panel? Okay.

Multi-Employer. Felipe, what do you want to do?

MR. DEVORA: I was thinking, maybe with the
Directorate's help, we could get -- I don't know who's

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going to be there, maybe Noah, to basically just do an
explanation and give a history of where we're at and how
we got there, and then we could discuss the process of why
we're there and why we think it's a good thing, and just
go from there.

At that point, I don't think any of the
discussion is going to change anything in the firm or in
the way that it's going to be. So it's really an
informational-type setting, I think, more than anything.
Question and answer, I guess.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We would like, I think,
the agency, and I think some of us would like some
feedback, on how the people perceive they're going to
implement this thing. How are they going to do that and
get a feel for that?

MR. DEVORA: Yes. I don't want to just show up
and say, here it is, folks, ask me some questions.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes.

MR. DEVORA: Certainly I don't want to do it
alone.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. So we're all
in agreement that Multi-Employer should be one of the

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workgroup sessions.

Fall Protection. Bob?

MR. MASTERSON: Yes. I had thought that it
would be a good idea to bring some of the people out of
the field, and that might be a good location to get some
of the multi-union carpenters involved to comment on some
of the questions you're dealing with.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Everyone agree that
Fall Protection should be a workgroup?
MR. DEVORA: And we'll define fall protection as
those 10 specific issues.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. Right. No. The
ones that Bob had on the question things from the group.

MR. SMITH: Yes, that's a good place for it
because those are the guys that were working with local
OSHA, weren't they, that came up with some alternative
methods for the groups, and so forth, in Chicago.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Is it Chicago that has the
partnership program?

MR. SMITH: Yes. Those are the guys.
MR. BUCHET: Yes. The Roofing Partnership is
Chicago.

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Could we contact them in
advance and maybe get somebody to come from that and talk
a little bit about the partnership? Oh. Are you going to
come to Chicago?

VOICE FROM AUDIENCE: Actually I'm -- someone
else from the program will be there.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Oh, good. All right.
Yes, you would be happy to participate, right?

VOICE FROM AUDIENCE: Do you want the -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. Monday the 14th of
February at the Holiday Inn, Rosemont.

Michael?

MR. BUCHET: I'm sorry.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: You had your hand up.

MR. BUCHET: Yes. One of the things is, have we
decided how to coordinate getting people to attend the
ACCSH workgroups and the conference? We have a number of
association representatives here who have expressed
interest in the Construction Safety Council conference and
the ACCSH meetings. Has the agency gone out anywhere and
said, here, this is where we're going to be and we're just
waiting for the normal announcement process?

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jim, do you want to take
that one?

MR. BOOM: We are coordinating our efforts with the folks up in Chicago, Mr. Broderick, in particular. We
have decided to have the full meeting on the 17th and
possibly half a day on the 18th in the Holiday Inn.

The workgroups will be on the 14th also in the
Holiday Inn, and the Rosemont Convention Center is
directly across the street from the Chicago O'Hare Holiday
Inn. Preliminary organizational efforts on our part, we felt that four workgroups on Monday may be appropriate.
We were talking about MSD, Fall Protection, Multi-Employer

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: And sanitation.

MR. BOOM: -- and Sanitation -

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So we've got MSDs, Multi-
Employer, Fall Protection, and Sanitation, are the four so
far that we have agreed to. If we get any more than that,
we're going to have to vote and see which ones we take.

Steve, did you want to have anything to say on
Safety and Health Program standards? Do you want a

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workgroup?

MR. CLOUTIER: I think we're waiting on Mr.
Zettler to provide us with a copy of the draft document that he's promised the first part of January -- to
workgroup members. Is the agency prepared to pay for
travel from Sunday through Friday?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We haven't got that far
yet.

MR. CLOUTIER: But you're talking about MSDs,
Falls, Sanitation, and what was the other one?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: MSDs, Multi-Employer, Fall
Protection, and Sanitation.

MR. RHOTEN: The Safety and Health Programs, it
seems like the only issue left on there was the training,
if I recall. Is that correct?

MR. CLOUTIER: Well, it's one issue. But the
other issue, is they have this draft document, you've got
(inaudible), they've got an attorney, and we're ready to
give it to us the first part of January, and we're waiting
on that document to finish (inaudible) this point.

MR. RHOTEN: And then we set up another
committee just on training, I think.

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes.

MR. RHOTEN: It would seem like the
recommendation on that training would fall back under this
Safety and Health Program, or should be part of it.

MR. CLOUTIER: And we may want to talk about
combining those two workgroups.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes.

MR. RHOTEN: Yes. It seems like that's where it
would belong, wouldn't it?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: It makes sense to me. Why
don't we bring that up tomorrow when we do the workgroups?

MR. CLOUTIER: Unfortunately, I have to be
missing the meeting tomorrow.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: That's right, you do.

MR. CLOUTIER: The Chairman, I'm sure, will
bring it up.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I'll bring it up and I'll
remember your support of that. I don't think we're going
to have a problem. Okay.

Any other discussion on the Monday, four
workgroups?

(No response)

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. I'd ask the
co-chairs of those four workgroups to prepare an agenda in
advance so we can get it to both Jim and Broderick,
through Michael, I guess, or through Jim, either one. It
doesn't matter to me.

Either one of you can answer this. How is the
publicity for the ACCSH meeting coming in combination with
the publicity for the conference?

MR. BOOM: What we'd like to do, is certainly
publish notice on the ACCSH web page. It may be on the
news bulletin, through our Office of Public Affairs, and
get an early Federal Register notice out.

In order for us to do that, we'd like to get
some idea of an agenda and what we're going to cover
during the 17th before we can make that happen. And I
understand the construction safety folks in Chicago are
doing some billing, not necessarily for the meeting, but
our participation in a couple of the breakout sessions.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. We have two
time slots during the program. Let's take a minute then.

One is going to be on MSDs, right?

MR. BUCHET: Well, we can certainly discuss

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that. I mean, if that's the -CHAIRMAN
BURKHAMMER: We haven't filled those
two yet.
MR. BUCHET: The only one that we committed to
solidly was sort of an overview of what ACCSH is and does.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Is that like the one we
did in Hawaii?
MR. BUCHET: Yes, except that we'd like to add
sanitation to it.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Certainly would. All

right. So that's going to be a panel of us, some of us.
MR. BUCHET: Some of us.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Four or five, three

or four?

MR. BUCHET: Well, I'm sure if what we're doing
is gathering information and giving information, we could
do 10 minutes on a number of topics and sort of make
everybody bleary-eyed, but they'd know.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, in Hawaii we did a

10-minute overview on each of the workers.
MR. BUCHET: Yes. We could do that again.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So we could ask one of the

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co-chairs of each of the workgroups, and in some we have
combination co-chairs so we'd only have about five people,
and let each of them speak on their workgroup. Does that
make sense to everybody?

MR. DEVORA: And this is in addition to the
four.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. This will be
somewhere in the conference. Okay. So we have one other
one to fill.

Suggestions on how to fill that one? I guess
sanitation could be certainly a topic that we could fill a
time slot with. Multi-Employer, we could certainly fill a
time slot with.

MR. BUCHET: We could do half and half.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: MSDs, we could fill the
time slot with.

MR. BUCHET: Well, we can fill a time slot. I
don't know that we need to fill a time slot so much as we
need to get out there and tell people what we're doing and
ask them for comments, and again maybe we should do two or
three of them relatively condensed versions.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: They kind of have an open

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forum workgroup.

MR. BUCHET: Breakout session.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: How long are the breakout
sessions?

MR. BUCHET: I'll have to call and find out.
think, all told, we have 2 and a half hours between the
two sessions.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, the overview
certainly could fill an hour and a half, anyway. So if
you use two subjects, like Multi-Employer, MSDs, or
Sanitation, or any combination of two of those three -

MR. BUCHET: I can go call. Tom's in the
office. I can call him and ask him exactly how much time
he can give us.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Why don't you do that, and
see if the fax showed up.

This is to come in on Sunday, be prepared for an
all-day session on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, attend the
conference, present the sessions that ACCSH is going to be
doing in the conference, Thursday, and half-day Friday,
the ACCSH meeting, go home Friday afternoon.

We had talked briefly about the DesPlaines,

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going over to Manny's shop and taking the tour. Could
that be the half-day Friday session?

MR. BOOM: Well, it was suggested that perhaps
you might want to consider doing that maybe on Wednesday
before the meeting, in the afternoon or something like
that.

It depends on how in-depth a show you guys want
from Manny's shop. Then possibly keep the meeting to one
day on Thursday and just leave Friday morning or travel
that evening. But that depends on how our agenda builds.

There is also a suggestion that we might want to
consider having public input during half a day, you know,
getting real workers and real, live contractors from the
different parts of the country to discuss their views and
ask questions of ACCSH. That was one suggestion.

MR. CLOUTIER: Mr. Chairman, that's not a bad
idea.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: What if we took a
Wednesday and spent a half a day, or a four-hour session,
on public input and an afternoon session at Manny's shop?

MR. CLOUTIER: Because isn't your public input
time going to take away from the conference?

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MR. BOOM: Right. The whole reasoning behind
this is, if you hold it on Thursday -- I think Thursday is
kind of a -- not really an off day, but kind of the slow
day for the conference.
So, therefore, we had our meeting on conjunction
with their meeting or at the same time slot, and we
wouldn't be taking away from their show, so to speak.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Danny?

MR. EVANS: A suggestion. May we start the
ACCSH committee meeting at noon on Wednesday and close it
at noon on Thursday, with the exception of four hours
Thursday afternoon for comment period, since it will be a
slow day for the conference?

MR. BOOM: Well, if we held it on Wednesday, we
would definitely be interfering with the conference.

MR. CLOUTIER: Mr. Chairman, what happens if you
did it Thursday morning and held, not a typical ACCSH
meeting, but listening to public, to other contractors,
and associations, and unions coming back to ACCSH with
their comments, and then Thursday afternoon going forward
to DesPlaines, to the Training Institute. Then you can
still bail out Thursday night or Friday morning.

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. But then you get no
ACCSH business done because there's no time slot for that.
If you have public input for four hours Thursday morning,
and then four hours over to Manny's shop, when is the
ACCSH meeting?

MR. CLOUTIER: Well, you're going to get ACCSH
business done on Monday with the workgroups. Is there
anything that truly needs to come to ACCSH on Thursday in
a formal meeting at that time? What's going to change in
the next 90 days?

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Sarah made a good point.
If we make the public comment period a two- or three-hour
part of the ACCSH meeting, we'll get taped minutes, a
transcript. Jane?

MS. WILLIAMS: I like that. Typically, many of
the public comments come as a result of hearing our
discussions, so if we briefly had our business, that might
stimulate some of those discussions, especially with an
agenda of the type of items that we would be covering.
That might really help stimulate that discussion.

MR. MASTERSON: I was going to say, one of the

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other things that I encourage each of the chairs is to
look at whether or not they can invite as many of the
labor force as they can while we're out there to get them
into the workgroup meetings and comment there, so you can
get two areas where you can actually start soliciting
comment from the people in the field that actually have to
make these things happen.

The other thing, is I've got to ask the
question, is three or four hours really sufficient time
for a group this size to tour Manny's shop?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. Let me throw this
out for discussion. On Thursday morning, we start at 8:00
a.m., since we're all there and we're all in construction
and we all start early anyway.

We go from 8:00 to 10:00 and we have the ACCSH
agenda, like we normally have here with workgroup reports,
and we open it for public comment, have a break, then we
open it for public comment from 10:15 until lunch.

Then we go to lunch. We go over to Manny's in
the afternoon, then Friday morning we conclude the ACCSH
business for two hours or so until 10:00, then hit the
plane. You don't like that?

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MR. CLOUTIER: No. I like the first part of it,
I don't like the last part. I can't sit here and commit
from Sunday through Friday, Mr. Chairman. I think if you
go around the committee, there's going to be a number of
us who can't.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: That's the problem?

MR. RHOTEN: That's the -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So if we finish on
Thursday and everybody leaves Thursday night or -

MR. RHOTEN: Leave Friday morning, or leave
whenever you want to. It's just the space between the
workgroups and the actual ACCSH meeting. If they were,
boom, boom, you could get your business done and go.

MR. BOOM: It's easy to fly in and out of
Washington to Chicago, because the shuttle leaves every
hour. For some of you flying out to the west coast, or
something like that -- Chicago O'Hare -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. Is it most of
the committee's flavor that we finish by the end of
Thursday night, or Thursday at 4:00, 5:00, whatever, and
that will be the end of it? Okay.

MR. DEVORA: Maybe make the trip to DesPlaines

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optional.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Don't push it.

MR. RHOTEN: They could get a video, maybe, to
show us.

(Laughter)

MR. BOOM: That was a recommendation in New
York.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. So we'll
finish up no later than 4:00 or 5:00 on Thursday, and it's
up to you all. You can either go home that night, or
stay. Like Bill said, whatever you feel like. Okay. So
Monday we've got the four workgroups, Tuesday, Wednesday,
attend the conference, make the presentations to the two
sessions, hopefully.

Thursday morning, we'll have the ACCSH meeting
from 8:00 to 10:00, public comment from 10:00 to 12:00,
lunch, and then Jim, I guess, we'll have a single point of
transportation to get over to Manny's. A mini-bus or
something to tote the group, a van, or -

MR. BOOM: I think the Institute has a bus.
They've got a couple.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: They've got a couple?

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Okay.

MR. BOOM: Yes. We can work that out.

(Pause)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Sarah brought up an

interesting point. If the visit to Manny's shop is part
of the ACCSH agenda, the public is invited to attend. So,
we need to address that issue in the notice. I think we
can address it to the fact that, if they want to attend,
they need to let us know in advance so we don't have 250,
300 people going.

MR. CLOUTIER: Mr. Chairman, a couple of years
ago when we were in Spokane we did not take the public
over to the miner's building there where Emsall was. We
just did it as an afternoon event.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes, but it was not a
formal part of the ACCSH meeting, it was a voluntary part
of the members to go to that. It wasn't a formal request
that they had to go.

MR. CLOUTIER: Let's make it a voluntary part
this time.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: That takes care of Felipe
getting out of going.

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(Laughter)

MR. BUCHET: Collect $50 a head and give it back
to them once they go through the tour.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jane?

MS. WILLIAMS: Mr. Chairman, I'm kind of
responsible for something here. I was the one who talked
to Jim about this tour, but my intent wasn't so much a
tour to see the facility, I thought it would be a great
time to talk to those folks about multi-employer
interpretations of the new document so they could deliver
the message we wanted them to have when they deliver it to
their compliance.

So I was kind of looking for a "hear it from us"
type of a scenario rather than go ooh and aah in the
building. So that's kind of where I was coming from.

MR. DEVORA: If we're afforded that opportunity,
I'll stay that Saturday.

MS. WILLIAMS: That was the intent. Now, if we
want to invite them in to the workgroup to deliver that
message, we may not be able to tour, but that was my
thought when I suggested it. I feel I ought to bail Jim
out on that.

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MR. BOOM: We had an open discussion informally,
and somebody suggested it to her, for the new ACCSH
members that may have never gone to see our training
facility, and at the same time have a discussion, perhaps,
with Manny to see where they are on certain construction
issues, training programs, and things of this nature.

MS. WILLIAMS: That was my intent.

MR. BOOM: We're flexible. I mean, we can do
anything that you want to do. If you want to sit down and
talk with the folks out there, we can try to arrange that.
If you want a tour, we can do that, too.

MR. RHOTEN: How many people have seen the
facility here? How many people have already seen it, or
have been there?

(A showing of hands)

MS. WILLIAMS: I was looking at it purely to
talk multi-employer, sanitation and -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. Why don't we
do this.

MR. RHOTEN: I was thinking, make them fight the
traffic and get to us.

MS. WILLIAMS: Come to us.

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Let's make the tour a part
of the Multi-Employer workgroup, and the purpose of the
tour will be for the Multi-Employer workgroup to share
with Manny and his team thoughts about the workgroup, and
any ACCSH member who wishes to attend that workgroup
session may go.

MR. RHOTEN: No wonder you're the chairman.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I may not be the sharpest
pencil in the box, but I listen well.

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Michael?

MR. BUCHET: Report from Rosemont. They, being
the Construction Safety Council, are in the process of
finishing their last promotional document. What they
would like from us is the title of the session that we're
going to do and a small blurb about each one.

The first session, 2:00 to 3:15, is the "this is
what ACCSH is and does," and 3:45 to 5:00 is the panel
session that I guess you decided what was going to be in
while I was out of the room.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: What day?

MR. BUCHET: That's a good question. I didn't

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ask him that. Wednesday. They have also written in a
brief blurb on the full ACCSH meeting on the 17th, and if
we can provide a description of what we're going in the
workgroups on Monday the 14th, they will make one for that
in the same document. They need that, like, this
afternoon. In the meantime, they're doing up a one- or
two-page piece and sending that to us that we can hand out
here.

So do we know what two items we're going to talk
about on the second part of Wednesday afternoon?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Well, the 2:00 to 3:15 is
the overview, right?

MR. BUCHET: Right. That's the ACCSH overview
and rundown on the committees. That's the generic blurb.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: And that's going to be,
we're going to do the overview of the workgroups, we're
going to have one workgroup chair of each workgroup there
to make that presentation.
MR. BUCHET: Well, I would hope the chairman

would do the overview.

MR. CLOUTIER: Not the sharpest pencil in the
box -

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(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I have no problem with
that. Let's talk about 3:45 to 5:00.

MR. BUCHET: The intervening half hour is to go
visit the exhibits.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay.

MR. BUCHET: That's where the soda, the coffee,
and the exhibits will all be.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: 3:45 to 5:00, you're not
going to get -- from my experience as vice president at
conferences for ASSC, the last session of each day is very
sparsely attended. So, knowing that -

MR. BUCHET: He pulls a good crowd all day.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: I know he pulls a good
crowd, but the year even I went to the Chicago conference
and was one of the speakers, the last -- you know, you get
maybe 50 percent of the morning attendance in the
afternoon. So if we put sanitation as one of them -- just
the reverse. If we put that as one as a hot topic, then
maybe we'll draw more people.

MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

MR. BUCHET: MSD and Multi-Employer are probably

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going to pull more contractors and sanitation.

MS. WILLIAMS: That's true. They're not
passionate on it.

MR. BUCHET: If we call it ergonomics. To
Regulate or Not, Ergonomics.

(Laughter)

MR. BUCHET: What do you think?

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. Show me a show
of hands. How many think MSD should be one of the two in
the afternoon?

(A showing of hands)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Seven. Okay, that's one.

How many think Multi-Employer should be the
other?

(A showing of hands)
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Seven. Okay. MSDs and
Multi-Employer.

Felipe, could you give Michael a quick little
blurb, a paragraph, and Michael and Marie can write the
one for MSDs quickly. Michael, you can fax those back to
Broderick today.

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Do we need to draft the overview or can you

construct that one just like we did in Hawaii?
MR. BUCHET: Yes, I can do that. Okay.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Now, on the four

workgroups for Monday, if each chairman could quickly
scribble down something for Michael, he can send that with
them. So MSDs. You can use pretty much the same one, and
we can slant it a little differently. Multi-Employer, you
could use the same one. We have a little different
directed for input. You've got something already, a
paragraph. Just give it to them.

Sanitation. Jane, do you have something you

could put together quickly for Michael?
MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Yes?
MS. WILLIAMS: I have to ask. Are we talking

two-hour sessions?
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: It's 2:00 to 3:15.
MS. WILLIAMS: 2:00 to 3:15.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Oh, you mean the

workgroups? Oh. Two-hour sessions.
MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And then the one on the

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afternoon was 3:15 to -

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: 3:45 to 5:00.

MS. WILLIAMS: Anybody want to split their time
with sanitation? I'm just asking.

MR. RHOTEN: Sanitation will take a long time,
won't it?

MS. WILLIAMS: I can talk fast.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Jane, you're going to have
a chance to talk about sanitation in the 2:00 to 3:15 time
slot when your workgroup report is, and I'm sure Mr.
Cooper would be more than happy to allow you to give that
report as the chairperson.

MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So why don't we just stay
with you doing that part. What I'd like from each of the
chairmen here is about an 8- to 10-minute sound bite, no
more than that. Because we're going to have some
feedback, and we can't run over the 3:15 because the
people are going to be going to the exhibits.

I would structure your remarks to maybe five or
six minutes and allow three or four for general comments.
I'll chair it and I'll move it along quickly, and I'll

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watch the time and cut the comments if we're into the next
person's time. Okay.

For our agenda on Wednesday, we'll start at

8:00. We'll have opening remarks, introductions, approval
of the minutes from -- Thursday. I'm sorry. Thursday.
Workgroup reports. That will run us until probably 9:30 to 9:45. We'll take a 15-minute break, then
we'll come back and we'll devote the entire time up until

12:00 to public comments.
Anybody disagree with that concept?
(No response)
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Any other comments
or questions about Chicago? I guess one is cost.
Berrien, I guess you and Bruce have to decide, if we're
going to be flying 13 people in there Sunday, you'll have
lodging Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and some
Thursday. I think we need to let Berrien know how many
are staying Thursday night, so raise your hand if you're
staying Thursday night.

(A showing of hands)
MR. BOOM: We have a block of rooms at the
Holiday Inn at Chicago O'Hare right now.

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: From what dates?

MR. BOOM: It would be the 13th through the
18th, is the block of rooms.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So Sunday through
Thursday.

MR. BOOM: Yes.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay.

MR. BOOM: Actually, it's -- yes, Sunday through
Thursday. Yes.

MS. WILLIAMS: Staying Thursday night and
leaving -

MR. BOOM: Yes, leaving Friday.

MS. WILLIAMS: Holiday Inn O'Hare?

MR. BOOM: Pardon me?

MS. WILLIAMS: Holiday Inn O'Hare?

MR. BOOM: Yes. In Rosemont, Illinois. It's
right across the street from the convention center.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: All right. So you need
from us when we're going to arrive so you'll know how many
rooms for Sunday night. It's not going to do us much good
to get there Monday unless you get there in time to make
the 8:00 start.

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Then how many are leaving Thursday and how many
are leaving Friday, if you can get that to Jim within the
next week.

MR. SMITH: You said the first meeting on Monday
will be at 8:00.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. So we'll start out
and we'll have Fall Protection from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 on
Monday, Multi-Employer, 10:00 to 12:00, Sanitation, 1:00
to 3:00, and MSDs, 3:00 to 5:00. So Bob will be first,
Felipe second, Jane third, and Michael and Marie, fourth.

MR. RHOTEN: Stew, I missed what the golf date
is.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: What?

MR. RHOTEN: Which is the golf day?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Saturday.

MR. RHOTEN: Saturday.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Yes. It's snow golf.
Snowshoes and mukluks.

Did you get that, Jim?

MR. BOOM: No. I missed the first part of it.
Fall Protection is first.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Fall Protection is 8:00

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a.m. to 10:00 a.m. Monday.
That's the workgroup.
MR. BOOM: Okay.
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: 10:00 to 12:00 is Multi-
Employer.

MR. BOOM: Okay.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: 1:00 to 3:00 is
Sanitation. There's a purpose for putting that right
after lunch. And 3:00 to 5:00 is MSDs.

MR. BUCHET: If we're going to publish this, why
don't we put 15 minutes in between each session?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Then the training
center workgroup is on Wednesday from 1:00 to 4:00 or
4:30, whenever. We need to know how many are going to
make the trip so Jim can tell them how many buses are
going to need to come and bus us over.

MS. SHORTALL: Jim, I think since it is a
workgroup, the fact that we would announce when and where
it's being held might indicate you only need to provide
transportation for our members, and then those members of
the public who would be interested in attending would be
responsible for their own transportation.

(Pause)

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: So when you get back to
Jim with the dates and times of your arrival and
departure, also indicate whether you're going to
DesPlaines or not, or to the Training Institute or you're
not.

MR. BOOM: Let me just clarify, we have a block
of rooms reserved, but you're going to call in your own
reservations. I will get you the phone number and the
contact person through the folks at Chicago of who to
contact.

Our Office of Public Affairs people have been
handling this and they have the proper meeting rooms and
all reserved as well. So I guess we're pretty well good
to go on that, but you will still need to make your own
personal reservations.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: We have a list of people
that have indicated they will be going to Chicago, and
Berrien has graciously indicated, if all those people want
to check in on Sunday and leave on Thursday, he'll assign
the rooms, he'll give you your room key when we get there,
and all that good stuff.

VOICE: Carry the luggage?

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MR. ZETTLER: Now, that assumes, of course, that
you will check in before the credit card time is
necessary, because we can't use the government credit card
to do that, I don't believe. I think that would be beyond
what we can do. But if everybody checks in by 6:00, then
we can do that.

VOICE: So we don't have to call?

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: You have to tell Jim
you're going, what day you're arriving, and if you want
him to make the reservation with the hotel with the block
or you want to make your own.

MR. RHOTEN: If you make it with block, then you
just pay that, or do you still need our credit card
number?

MR. ZETTLER: No, I think we can do that on a
requisition.

MR. RHOTEN: Just automatically.

MR. ZETTLER: Yes. Yes.

MR. RHOTEN: That would be nice.

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: See, they're making it
easier for us all the time.

(Pause)

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CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Just give it to Jim before
we leave today and he'll make a note. Okay.
Everybody in agreement with what we've done?

Anybody who doesn't understand what we've done?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Anybody who will not be
prepared when it's their turn?

(Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Okay. Then we're
adjourned for today and we'll meet back here tomorrow at

8:30.
Oh. Wait a minute. We had one person sign up
for public comment for tomorrow. Is there anybody that
would like to comment today?

(No response)

CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Is there anybody who would
like to comment tomorrow, other than those who have signed
up?

(No response)
CHAIRMAN BURKHAMMER: Meeting adjourned until

8:30 tomorrow.
(Whereupon, at 3:05 p.m., the meeting was
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recessed, to reconvene at 8:30 a.m. on Friday, December
10, 1999.)

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing
proceedings of a meeting of the Advisory Committee on
Constructive Safety and Health (ACCSH), Occupational
Safety and Health Administration, held on December 9,
1999, were transcribed as herein appears, and this is the
original of transcript thereof.

SONIA GONZALES

Court Reporter

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